Proof of Calvinism

Scan states... "How about instead we agree that God chooses not to use that knowledge (of our sin) to create a debt that must be repaid, and leave it at that?"

Nice force feed brother but does that really work on one who is so hell bent on their own beliefs? Your all just whistling in the wind, I'm thinking!

 

Yes, I am too. I am utterly shocked to the core. It is terrible.

This ought to be confronted. I have as big a problem with the silence of people who don't confront this on here as I do with the people who promote it.

 

Van,

Are there authors who have led you to your various conclusions? Are you just trying to study the Bible on your own and coming to these various conclusions yourself?

In love I share the verse below with you,

2 Timothy 2:15
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

I hope those who replied to you above on the Baptist Board have helped to give you some thoughts to meditate on. This forum has helped me when I've been in error in the past. We all make errors in our thinking. It's part of being still in the "flesh" with our indwelling sin.

May the power and truth of God's Holy Word Purify us all.

 

Reply to Skandelon,

No one is denying omniscience, the issue is inherent or total. If I take your word at face value, as I should be able to do because your yes means yes and your no means no, then you believe in inherent omniscience.

You used the term infinite omniscience which is based on a mistranslation, i.e. shoddy bible study. The word means beyond measure, or beyond our comprehension, not infinite. But the advocates of the false doctrine of total omniscience use that verse over and over.

Your doctrine, total omniscience creates incomprehensible absurdities, paradoxes and creates doubt. It should be left on the dust bin on history.

Your statement, Van is wrong is without support. I have supported my view from the text. I have explained that the verses that say God is all knowing in context refer to God knowing what is in our hearts, and those verses are ripped out of context to support total omniscience. Meanwhile God makes plans, says now I know, and remembers our sin no more forever.

Here is a sound hermeneutic, if something cannot be understood, do not think it is a valid view of the Word. God is not a God of confusion. My views are all simple and understandable and are based on what God says. Each and everyone of them is supported by the grammar, syntax, and published commentaries by those who understand the language.

All these efforts to question my qualifications and character are without merit.

There is no support, none, zip, nada, for Calvinism's TULI in scripture. Only a lot of verses ripped from context, misinterpreted, and misrepresented.

 

The bible teaches our sin testifies against us. Now when God remembers no more our sin forever, does He cast that testimony into the sea. Does He blot it out, and obliterate that testimony from His memory? I say yes based on a straightup reading of scripture. Colossians 2:14. Therefore, there is no reason not to accept the doctrine of inherent omniscience based on God saying He can remember no more forever.

 

Do you mean like God inspiring the writing of events he can't possibly know because he doesn't remember them anymore?

The difference between your view and mine is that I appeal to mystery so as to avoid drawing a false conclusion, while you draw a false conclusion by appealing to a mystery.

Your false conclusion is that God is not really all knowing while appealing to the same mystery I do (his ways are higher than ours and all we know is what scripture reveals). The problem is that scripture reveals both aspects (his omniscience and his responses). I accept both as true and just admit I don't understand how it all works, while you deny the first in favor of the second and still have to claim you don't understand how it all works. I see no reason for such things.

And I'm still waiting on the commentaries that support your views.

 

Reply to Skandelon,

I am not going to respond to your request for commentaries.

I already addressed the issue of God writing about the sins of saints. Please address my position and not your strawman argument.

I am not appealing to mystery. Scripture reveals His inherent omniscience, not total omniscience. You have no support, only verses ripped out of context. I do not deny any scripture. I have explained your "infinite knowledge verse.

I have answered all your questions and you have agree God did not know how Abraham would respond. Yet you have not agreed that inherent omniscience is the only view that is consistent with all scripture. Instead you act like some scripture supports the total view. None exists.

 

1 John 3:19-20, "We shall know by this that we are of the truth, and shall assure our heart before Him, 20 in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart, and knows all things."

The above is a typical passage cited in support of total omniscience. However if you just read it, what does it say. If our heart condemns us, (1) God is greater than our heart so can overrule or pardon or foregive whatever the heart brings up, and (2) God knows everything our heart might bring up and therefore overrules or pardons or foregives all of it. That is it folks, nothing whatsoever concerning the false doctrine that God knows everything imaginable. Zip, nada, nothing.

 

Why am I not surprised?!

No, you haven't answered all his questions (see the first quote above).

If you are denying God's total omniscience, you are denying the biblical doctrine of omniscience.

Your views are indeed simple. They are the simple views of someone who simply has no biblical clue.

Anyone that has any facility with the languages knows this to be an absolutely false statement.

Since you are unwilling (or more likely unable) to produce these commentaries, we are left with no other conclusion that you are coming up with these bizarre thoughts on your own.

What is more, since you've stated you know no Greek (and likely know no Hebrew either), even if these so-called commentaries do exist outside of your own mind, you would have no way to evaluate the claims of the authors as they refer to the Greek grammar or syntax.

Your state is a very sad state indeed--chasing your windmills which are only figments of your delusion.

The Archangel

 

If you could I would appreciate it so we could study where you are coming from better and understand the history of related thoughts, perhaps from other authors who speak with clarity on these views.

I enjoy reading Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology, but I also enjoy reading Gregg Allison's companion volume called The History of Theology. It shows how for centuries people have tried to understand theology.

 

Hi CFI, I think you are the one who questioned my qualifications. Now you claim not to be able to flip open an exhaustive concordance and look up each and every verse where God says He will forgive our sins and remember them no more forever, or cast them into the sea, or whatever. Here is a clue, there are about 12 of them. Now once you have found the verses, look at what the commentaries you have say about these verses. You will find they say God chooses not to remember our sins or what rhe sins testify against us, forever. A few deny God actually promises never to remember them, but most side with me.

I would appreciate it if you would post all you find and what your commentaries say. I have already done that study. Have you?

 

Van, we have simply requested you to point us to some scholars and/or commentaries that support your views. That is not an unreasonable request.

I have access to dozens of commentaries and I have looked through about 6 of them in the last two days involving this matter. I've yet to find any who claim that God doesn't know about the sins he has forgiven. I also haven't seen any speculate that God knows of the event (murder/denial of Christ etc) but doesn't know that it violated his will.

So again, can you point us to any scholars who support these views?

 

................

 

More like "since." That this is coming from Baptists is shocking. Well, not as shocking to me as it once was.

 

Yes, perhaps I should have used the word "since." I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt. I guess for you (and me) and most of us, Van has removed all doubt.

The Archangel

 

Finally a point we can agree upon. :tongue3:

In the statement of faith of this Board (from the BFM), it states:

II. God

There is one and only one living and true God. He is an intelligent, spiritual, and personal Being, the Creator, Redeemer, Preserver, and Ruler of the universe. God is infinite in holiness and all other perfections. God is all powerful and all knowing; and His perfect knowledge extends to all things, past, present, and future, including the future decisions of His free creatures.​

It certainly appears Van is denying this foundational Baptist teaching and unless he can produce some type of scholarship supporting his claims he stands on some very shaky ground and may need to move this discussion to a "non-Baptist" forum.

 

QUOTE FROM VAN:

So According to Van:

1. God chooses to remember our sins no more.
2. I can remember my sins, and might feel guilty, even guilty before God.
3. But I shouldn't, because God doesn't remember them.
4. BUT...God knows everything my heart might bring up, and forgives it...even though he doesn't know about those sins.

No wonder we can't figure this out...so much for "SIMPLE".

 

... or Biblical!

 

Keep in mind this was not against what you stated, or trying to go against what you said. I know you were being kind in giving the benefit of the doubt, and I can appreciate that. In my estimation, after much error has been propagated several times, it seemed time to shift to "since." Van needs to abrogate his erroneous teachings here.

But his is not the only example in this thread where what God knows has come into question.

I see the creation of a finite god to mans liking coming into "being" here. It is a reduction of His omnis, His person and nature. I really really have a hard time understanding a person undermining the person and nature of God, especially of a believer. This being done by one that claims Him as Savior is bewildering to say the least. How could one do so, and what place does this god have in the life of such a person when he is reduced to a finite being by said teachings? Obviously there is NO infinite nature in a god that comes to learn and know things. These teachings are contrary to Scripture, and against the very nature and Sovereignty of God.

This is literally making His Name and person less than what it and He is. Any person who teaches against God knowing all things at all times has reduced God to a finite being. The fact that Christ left the "times" of His coming in the hands of the Father does NOT mean that God does not know all things at all times.

The fact is God knows all things, at all times, and NEVER "comes to know something."

I have never seen anything like this in ANY Baptist church, nor have I witnessed such come from any Baptist that I have ever met.

This is clearly error.

 

The "Ignore Feature" is wonderful fellas! You should try it:smilewinkgrin: