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can God REALLY Be Sovereign IF mankind as a "Full" Free Will?
- Thread starter JesusFan
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Tom Butler
New Member
Man operates freely within his nature, and according to his nature.
Believers, who have been given a new nature, operate differently from when they had only their old sinful nature. Their "want-to" is changed.
Believers, who have been given a new nature, operate differently from when they had only their old sinful nature. Their "want-to" is changed.
freeatlast
New Member
I think we could ask can God be all knowing and not know everything? Jesus who was and is God said He did not know everything. So to your question the answer is also yes.
jesus during the Incarnation limited Himself to operating pretty much as a man at that time, in the kenosis of Christ, he gave up the full function/use of all of his divine attributes, so he was ignorant of his second coming, but since fully reglorified, he again "knows' all things!
And though jesus did not need to know the date, his father still did in heaven, so God still always knew all things!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
It is my opinion that on occasion Jesus Christ spoke as man.
The Apostle Paul states: For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. [Colossians 2:9]
I believe the only thing He gave up in the Incarnation was His Glory, for obvious reasons. In His prayer as recorded in John 17 Jesus Christ says:
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. [John 17:5]
The Apostle Paul states: For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. [Colossians 2:9]
I believe the only thing He gave up in the Incarnation was His Glory, for obvious reasons. In His prayer as recorded in John 17 Jesus Christ says:
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. [John 17:5]
freeatlast
New Member
Can you prove your assumption?
what assumption was made?
All of that is found in the Bible, see Apostle paul regarding Phillipians and jesus emptying Himself, kenosis!
freeatlast
New Member
Are you saying He was not God while in the flesh?
No, he was still God, but was also a man...
2 natures within one body, fully God/man
And he laid aside use of all of His divinity while on earth, as to die as a servant on the Cross!
freeatlast
New Member
Very good! I am glad you see that. Now back to the OP.
can God REALLY Be Sovereign IF mankind as a "Full" Free Will
The answer is yes just like God can be a man and God and not know everything.
is the free will of man then limited in that it is ONLY the amount allowed by god, and as such, the creation will ALWAYS be under authority/control of the Creator?
freeatlast
New Member
He is in total control and man has free will. Both working hand in hand to bring about His will.
If God wants something done, but you refuse to do what He wants, whose Will wins out in the end?
freeatlast
New Member
It depends on what it is He wants done. Sometimes man will overrides God's will.
1Th 4:3
For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 5:18
In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
Not every believer abstains or always gives thanks. God does not always get His will
Does He as it regards who gets saved?
Of course, its His will believers are saved.
freeatlast
New Member
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Do all repent?
I have a bit of a problem with this whole notion that man has "free will."
Man's will in it's natural form is tuned to the world and slaved to the way of the world.
Man's God given new will is tuned to God and to the way of Heavenly things.
In neither case is man's will free.
There is NO free will, no free choice.
If there were there would be no consequences to a person expressing their freedom of choice. God would be powerless in such an expression.
There are always consequences and therefore no free will.
Man's will in it's natural form is tuned to the world and slaved to the way of the world.
Man's God given new will is tuned to God and to the way of Heavenly things.
In neither case is man's will free.
There is NO free will, no free choice.
If there were there would be no consequences to a person expressing their freedom of choice. God would be powerless in such an expression.
There are always consequences and therefore no free will.
freeatlast
New Member
This is free will.
Matt 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
If man had no such thing as free will. Why would God put man through this life we are in? There simply would be no reason for it at all. God is God He can have the results He wants instantly by speaking it into existance. Just seems rather strange to me why such a powerful God would have created all this nonsense. If God doesn't trust man with his own will. Then what possible good would it be to have a man he could not trust? And how can a man trust God, if God doesn't trust him. A relationship is always based on trust.
On the other hand if God wants the genuine article, a man who is willingly submisive to Him, because the man willingly submits to Him. Then He must give man the space to learn from God all of his alternatives and leave it up to the man to either reject or not reject. Other wise God can never know the genuine article of a willfull relationship
No matter whether man has a freewill or not. God is always going to be Sovereigne. Don't let anyone tell you that man's freewill would destroy God's sovereignty because mans freewill has no such effect on God. In fact Nothing can take down God even though He laid down Him Self for our Salvation He also took back His glory. He is still God.
MB
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