can God REALLY Be Sovereign IF mankind as a "Full" Free Will?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

you HAVE to ignore the Fall of Adam, refuse that we are now spiritual dead being found to now be in Adam by God, that jesus died to secure real salvation for his own, in order to hold to that!

basically, our salvation totally dependent upon us, and we allow/permit God to save us!

Yes ignore predestination so you can allow human beings to determine their own spiritual destiny..... :laugh:

 

[JesusFan]

Yes ignore predestination so you can allow human beings to determine their own spiritual destiny..... :laugh:

predestination/Election, once I started to understand it from the Biblical perspective...

has proven to be a great encoragement to me and my family, as since the Lord is standing behind us in His power, to make sure that we can get home, gives us hope for whatever comes our way!

Also helped me to pray ansd to witness better, as now realise that its God who has to work upon others in order to get them saved, and God will do all that is needed every time to get His will done!

 

[quantumfaith]

predestination/Election, once I started to understand it from the Biblical perspective...

has proven to be a great encoragement to me and my family, as since the Lord is standing behind us in His power, to make sure that we can get home, gives us hope for whatever comes our way!

Also helped me to pray ansd to witness better, as now realise that its God who has to work upon others in order to get them saved, and God will do all that is needed every time to get His will done!

JF, don't you think that everyone who claims the moniker of "Christian" also believes that they too read and understand doctrines of scripture. I am glad that you are confident and secure in where "you have landed" theologically, but those of us that differ are also equally confident and secure. We even share our faith and convictions with others too.

 

[JesusFan]

JF, don't you think that everyone who claims the moniker of "Christian" also believes that they too read and understand doctrines of scripture. I am glad that you are confident and secure in where "you have landed" theologically, but those of us that differ are also equally confident and secure. We even share our faith and convictions with others too.

i fully agree, was not talking about anyone else there, was just stating that we can be confident in god to bring about whatever His plans and purposes are, as he has those in mind for us, and he is sovereign to accomplish everything that we need to make sure we get to heaven and can be used by him in this life too!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

predestination/Election, once I started to understand it from the Biblical perspective...

has proven to be a great encouragement to me and my family, as since the Lord is standing behind us in His power, to make sure that we can get home, gives us hope for whatever comes our way!

Also helped me to pray ansd to witness better, as now realize that its God who has to work upon others in order to get them saved, and God will do all that is needed every time to get His will done!

I like this very much JF.....more so that its true! Blessings to you for that my brother.:godisgood::thumbs:

 

[agedman]

Man has always had that capacity to choose yet you claim he doesn't. If so how is that man with out God can agree with the Law even have those sames Laws in there culture.

No problem with man's laws agreeing with the ten commandments. The Scriptures indicate that every man and culture has the commandments imprinted upon their hearts. That is how society keeps from internal collapse. However, keeping the commandments is not providing any measure of righteousness between God and man (see rich young ruler), only further validates man's failure.

Then you say man can not choose good. You are simply wrong. Man has always chosen either evil or good. To obey the Law or not. A clear demonstration of freewill.

No, that is not a demonstration of "freewill." Man following the law or not is the will of the old nature. That will is a fallen will, it cannot know God, and cannot receive the things of God. As such, it is NOT a free will. It is sinful and leads man to fail.

No one is claiming that man is a success. With out God man does nothing to even find God. Not that he couldn't seek God he just doesn't. Freewill doesn't choose Christ, but freewill does give up or surrender to Christ. Even Christ said we haven't chosen Him but that He chose us. He died for those who he chose and that is everyman on earth. There is no assurance of Salvation in being chosen for Salvation. All men are drawn scripture says so.
Jn. 12:32. Being drawn doesn't assure Salvation. Only faith insures Salvation and we must have faith for Grace to come to us through faith. Eph 2:8.

The scriptures teach that the natural man does not seek God.
Psalms 14: "The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that does good, no, not one."

The "assurance of salvation" comes by God having bestowed "the measure of faith," and therefore such passages of hope such as "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit," and "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" serve as agreement between the Holy Spirit and the spirit of the new nature.


The Scriptures reject the argument that "freewill does give up or surrender to Christ." The Scriptures teach in 1 Corinthians 2:14, "But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

We can all agree that man is evil but what your view ignores is all things are possible with God.

Not at all.

It is the Arminian view that refutes that does not hold to the statement, "with God all things are possible."

In the Arminian view, the person has the power to accept or reject.

In the Arminian view, the person has the power to embrace or prevent.

It is the Calvinistic thinking that totally holds to "all things are possible with God."

Not once in scripture is it ever indicated that man is unable to respond to the gospel. In fact the opposite is true. Why men want to believe this inability is true when scripture never says it's true only men make this false claim. If you can't prove it with the Bible it isn't true.
MB

Actually the scriptures do teach that man in his natural state cannot respond to the gospel.

Examples from the Scriptures have been shown on the bb.

No person can respond to God or from God, unless first God does a miraculous work.

An example is Balaam, the donkey, the angel of the Lord.

It is the Arminian view that has been shown not supportable by Scriptures taken in context.

One of the phrases common to the revival meetings of the past is "Accept Christ." That has led many to embrace the thinking that man has a choice. But just as Christ told Nicodemus, a person MUST be born again.

No child decides their conception, their formation, their birth, yet each cries out displaying for all to hear that they are alive.

It is that same way in the new birth.

 

[agedman]

True calvinists go beyond sovereignty. We call it the absolute sovereignty of God. We also believe in free will of man under the permissive will of God; "thus far and no further" as demonstrated with Jonah.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim,

I am a calvinistic thinker that rejects thinking that there is any "free will" of "free choice."

The will of man is either tuned to God (Adam before the fall - for he had intimate walk and talk with God), or the will is fallen (Adam after the fall, communication was cut off by God).

The New nature (which includes a new will) is given to man and wars against the old will.

The new nature will is not "free" for it is tuned to be submissive to God.

One might consider that a person may "choose" the wills. However, the very subject of "will" indicates that one "will" follow the "will."

Therefore, there is no "free will" and no "free choice."

Each will has unavoidable consequences.

The question may be asked, how then does a person who is saved fall into sin and get back out. Paul states that the believers who detect such a person are to go to that person and "restore" them, or shun (using an old Amish term) and removal from the assembly that the body is destroyed and soul saved.

 

[JesusFan]

Jim,

I am a calvinistic thinker that rejects thinking that there is any "free will" of "free choice."

The will of man is either tuned to God (Adam before the fall - for he had intimate walk and talk with God), or the will is fallen (Adam after the fall, communication was cut off by God).

The New nature (which includes a new will) is given to man and wars against the old will.

The new nature will is not "free" for it is tuned to be submissive to God.

One might consider that a person may "choose" the wills. However, the very subject of "will" indicates that one "will" follow the "will."

Therefore, there is no "free will" and no "free choice."

Each will has unavoidable consequences.

The question may be asked, how then does a person who is saved fall into sin and get back out. Paul states that the believers who detect such a person are to go to that person and "restore" them, or shun (using an old Amish term) and removal from the assembly that the body is destroyed and soul saved.

man is free to chose, its just their choices will be bound up in the 'Bondgae of the Flesh", to borrow from Luthor!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Jim,

I am a calvinistic thinker that rejects thinking that there is any "free will" of "free choice."

The will of man is either tuned to God (Adam before the fall - for he had intimate walk and talk with God), or the will is fallen (Adam after the fall, communication was cut off by God).

The New nature (which includes a new will) is given to man and wars against the old will.

The new nature will is not "free" for it is tuned to be submissive to God.

One might consider that a person may "choose" the wills. However, the very subject of "will" indicates that one "will" follow the "will."

Therefore, there is no "free will" and no "free choice."

Each will has unavoidable consequences.

The question may be asked, how then does a person who is saved fall into sin and get back out. Paul states that the believers who detect such a person are to go to that person and "restore" them, or shun (using an old Amish term) and removal from the assembly that the body is destroyed and soul saved.

Im curious as to how you came to these conclusions?

 

[JesusFan]

No problem with man's laws agreeing with the ten commandments. The Scriptures indicate that every man and culture has the commandments imprinted upon their hearts. That is how society keeps from internal collapse. However, keeping the commandments is not providing any measure of righteousness between God and man (see rich young ruler), only further validates man's failure.





No, that is not a demonstration of "freewill." Man following the law or not is the will of the old nature. That will is a fallen will, it cannot know God, and cannot receive the things of God. As such, it is NOT a free will. It is sinful and leads man to fail.




The scriptures teach that the natural man does not seek God.
Psalms 14: "The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that does good, no, not one."

The "assurance of salvation" comes by God having bestowed "the measure of faith," and therefore such passages of hope such as "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit," and "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" serve as agreement between the Holy Spirit and the spirit of the new nature.


The Scriptures reject the argument that "freewill does give up or surrender to Christ." The Scriptures teach in 1 Corinthians 2:14, "But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."




Not at all.

It is the Arminian view that refutes that does not hold to the statement, "with God all things are possible."

In the Arminian view, the person has the power to accept or reject.

In the Arminian view, the person has the power to embrace or prevent.

It is the Calvinistic thinking that totally holds to "all things are possible with God."






Actually the scriptures do teach that man in his natural state cannot respond to the gospel.

Examples from the Scriptures have been shown on the bb.

No person can respond to God or from God, unless first God does a miraculous work.

An example is Balaam, the donkey, the angel of the Lord.

It is the Arminian view that has been shown not supportable by Scriptures taken in context.

One of the phrases common to the revival meetings of the past is "Accept Christ." That has led many to embrace the thinking that man has a choice. But just as Christ told Nicodemus, a person MUST be born again.

No child decides their conception, their formation, their birth, yet each cries out displaying for all to hear that they are alive.

It is that same way in the new birth.

welcome to the daily "Will of God Vrs Will of man" discussion here on the BB!

Have to understand that though no one here cliams to have Arminian theology as regards Sotierology, as they prefer to use "Non cal"...

At least arms see that we were damaged by the fall, and we srill need grace of God to enable us to chose for jesus...

They dislike us for saying God has it irresistable towards his elect, the see ALL as potentially the elect, based upon our rejection/accpetnace after God enable us!
NON cals see us still able to do that within ourselves, still have natural ability to place faith in jesus !

So JUST need to hear Gospel, and freely decide for Christ or not!

 

[agedman]

man is free to chose, its just their choices will be bound up in the 'Bondgae of the Flesh", to borrow from Luthor!

If their "choices will be bound up in the bondage of the flesh", then there is still no "free to chose" position.

Free to chose would indicate that a personal volition to gain righteousness exists. There is none.

No free will, no freedom of choice.

 

[agedman]

Im curious as to how you came to these conclusions?

The Scriptures teach that Adam choose to sin. That is he chose the love for Eve over the Love for God.

The Scriptures also teach that all humanity dwells in bondage to sin and the natural man not only does not receive the things of God, but is in a state of active rebellion against God.

To make an understanding of the will must also include just what the will is as related to the nature of man. It is the driving force, the deciding factor, the desire and inclination including attitude toward something, or body...

The Scriptures teach that the nature of man includes the will (determining force) of man, for no man lives that does not obey their will. What man will do, he does - as even Paul stated.

The Scriptures indicate that the new nature of God includes a new will (determining force) that redirects the focus and living of the believer to things of God.

Because neither of the wills are free, then it follows that there is no freedom of choice.

Freedom of choice implies that there is no consequence except in which direction(way to go) or object is chosen. However, the Scriptures teach that God knows and considers humanities' thoughts before they are even "thunk."

Because the very heart (thoughts and emotions) of humankind are reviewed by God, there is no process of thinking that does not have consequences. (Note what Jesus said about sin was more than an act - aligned with the "thought of foolishness is sin).

So, it is conclude-able that there is "no freedom of choice" and "no free will" and that Scriptures support the statements as I indicated.

I know that this view is a lonely position to hold, and that most will not be inclined to be agree totally. However, it is Scriptural.

 

[freeatlast]

So JUST need to hear Gospel, and freely decide for Christ or not!

Now that is a fact. :thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

If their "choices will be bound up in the bondage of the flesh", then there is still no "free to chose" position.

Free to chose would indicate that a personal volition to gain righteousness exists. There is none.

No free will, no freedom of choice.

Then mankind is force-fed salvation then?

 

[freeatlast]

The Scriptures teach that Adam choose to sin. That is he chose the love for Eve over the Love for God.

The Scriptures also teach that all humanity dwells in bondage to sin and the natural man not only does not receive the things of God, but is in a state of active rebellion against God.

To make an understanding of the will must also include just what the will is as related to the nature of man. It is the driving force, the deciding factor, the desire and inclination including attitude toward something, or body...

The Scriptures teach that the nature of man includes the will (determining force) of man, for no man lives that does not obey their will. What man will do, he does - as even Paul stated.

The Scriptures indicate that the new nature of God includes a new will (determining force) that redirects the focus and living of the believer to things of God.

Because neither of the wills are free, then it follows that there is no freedom of choice.

Freedom of choice implies that there is no consequence except in which direction(way to go) or object is chosen. However, the Scriptures teach that God knows and considers humanities' thoughts before they are even "thunk."

Because the very heart (thoughts and emotions) of humankind are reviewed by God, there is no process of thinking that does not have consequences. (Note what Jesus said about sin was more than an act - aligned with the "thought of foolishness is sin).

So, it is conclude-able that there is "no freedom of choice" and "no free will" and that Scriptures support the statements as I indicated.

I know that this view is a lonely position to hold, and that most will not be inclined to be agree totally. However, it is Scriptural.

Scriptures support both the election of God and man's free will to choose. Both are taught and both are working together to bring some to salvation wihtout one violating the other.

 

[convicted1]

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Scriptures support both the election of God and man's free will to choose. Both are taught and both are working together to bring some to salvation wihtout one violating the other.

 

[JesusFan]

If their "choices will be bound up in the bondage of the flesh", then there is still no "free to chose" position.

Free to chose would indicate that a personal volition to gain righteousness exists. There is none.

No free will, no freedom of choice.

i agree with you, as read Luthors book early on, his discussion of this very point debating Erasumus!

 

[JesusFan]

Now that is a fact. :thumbsup:

need to palce the quote in its proper contex though!

They dislike us for saying God has it irresistable towards his elect, the see ALL as potentially the elect, based upon our rejection/accpetnace after God enable us!
NON cals see us still able to do that within ourselves, still have natural ability to place faith in jesus !

So JUST need to hear Gospel, and freely decide for Christ or not!


that last part refers to what the non cals here say, as would deny need to have God apply effectually the grace of the Cross to our behalf in order to be even in a position able toactually receive jes, as their theology states!

 

[mandym]

If man still has the ability, means to freely chose to accept/reject Jesus at the present time?

Yes He can

 

[freeatlast]

need to palce the quote in its proper contex though!

They dislike us for saying God has it irresistable towards his elect, the see ALL as potentially the elect, based upon our rejection/accpetnace after God enable us!
NON cals see us still able to do that within ourselves, still have natural ability to place faith in jesus !

So JUST need to hear Gospel, and freely decide for Christ or not!


that last part refers to what the non cals here say, as would deny need to have God apply effectually the grace of the Cross to our behalf in order to be even in a position able toactually receive jes, as their theology states!

I cannot tell you what "non cals" believe. I can only tell you that the bible teaches. God elects because of Sovereignty and man chooses from free will. It is God and man each working together that some might be saved. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. God offers man faith through hearing of the word of God and man freely chooses if he wants to accept (repent) or not.