can God REALLY Be Sovereign IF mankind as a "Full" Free Will?

[freeatlast]

neither!

just saying that due to the fall of Adam, His disobedience passed down to us a fallen nature, that cannot chose 'freely" any more for God, as its very nature is to be at war against God and cannot be controlled...

That is why NONE seek the true God of their own voliation, following instead man made gods and religions...

ONLY God can cause one to be reborn again, Divine act of His Will to save thom he has chosen in jesus to receive eternal life..

God does NOT depend upon mans 'free will", since we no longer have it in same sense Adam once did have, and he has secured His own in Christ, not relying upon ole feeble us!

Not according to scripture. Man has free ill to choose and God has sovereign authority to elect. Both are working together to save some.

 

[JesusFan]

Sounds like you really have the date rape of the scripture down to an art. The way you interpret scrtipture we do not need a bible. What we need is a code book to translate what is written into what it does nto say. However I choose to believe the bible as given. God elects, man chooses. Both are true according to scripture. God's election does not override man's free will choice and man's choice does not lesson God's sovereign choice.

God does not "override" amns free will, as man by ourselves have the will ONLY to reject Christ and salvation!

God DOES enable those whom He has chosen in christ to be saved to actually have once again 'free will' to excercise their God granted faith to be palced in Christ and get saved..

NOT "date rape", its more as a loving father granting to His children the actuals means to come back home to Him!

 

[freeatlast]

God does not "override" amns free will, as man by ourselves have the will ONLY to reject Christ and salvation!

God DOES enable those whom He has chosen in christ to be saved to actually have once again 'free will' to excercise their God granted faith to be palced in Christ and get saved..

NOT "date rape", its more as a loving father granting to His children the actuals means to come back home to Him!

Any person can be saved if they will repent and come to faith.

 

[quantumfaith]

Any person can be saved if they will repent and come to faith.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[JesusFan]

Any person can be saved if they will repent and come to faith.

Point is that per the Bible, man cannot even repent and come to faith in Christ unless the Lord opens our hearts and minds to do such!

With God enabling us to do such, we will "choose" to stay in the darkness of our sins!

 

[freeatlast]

Point is that per the Bible, man cannot even repent and come to faith in Christ unless the Lord opens our hearts and minds to do such!

With God enabling us to do such, we will "choose" to stay in the darkness of our sins!

The point is that God has given every person the enabling to repent, some just harden their hearts and refuse to do it.

 

[MB]

First, you have the thinking that man can refuse to sin, refuse to do the bidding of the enemy, and that it is all in man's freedom of choice.

Spoken like a man not willing to admit that my intention is not the same as his own interpretation. I never said Man could do anything on his own. You see it's your interpretation that's the problem here. You place your own on it and did not read my post with the intention to try and place my intent into your interpretation, Instead you placed your own intent on it. Man's freewill is all through scripture. If you are a true dispensationlist you'd have to admit that. However following dispensationlism you will eventually come to find this out.

That is not biblical. The only freedom of choice lasted until Adam chose Eve over God. From then on there has been nothing but rebellion, excuse, and blaming others in the natural will.

If this were true then every Calvinist would be more than happy to post scripture to support this view. The sad fact it is not true because if man has no freewill then once saved he is as pure as the driven snow. Of course the latter isn't so. which is why so many Christians are still carnal.

Man in the natural will always will choose to sin. Even the attempt to live righteously is a sin. (see rich young ruler).

Not true the natural man under conviction can surrender especially when he has no where else to turn to escape the pain of conviction.

Second, God doesn't trust man. Why should he? When has the natural man ever done anything but fail God? Even when Christ comes to rule, and the earth is dramatically aligned to His will, man fails and rebels.

Nonsense;
If God doesn't trust man He certainly would never save any man. A relationship requires trust. God trust that some men will come to Him when drawn. He also knows some will not come to Him.

Third, God does want the genuine article. That is why He implants a new nature which includes a new will into man. A new nature in which we have fellowship with Him and can appeal to Him at any time - the same as was given to Adam before he submitted to Eve. God has no fellowship with the old nature and will and has no reason to respond kindly to any appeal by that old fallen nature.

All I can say is that what ever is implanted is not the Holy Spirit but the Knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This happens in the convincing and the convincing brings on conviction. Conviction can takes us all the way to surrender.
Did you Know doctrine with out scriptural support is worthless? Total depravity does not exist. It's man's doctrine not that of Jesus Christ. Not even one verse supports an inability to come to God before regeneration. I believe you're knowledgable enough to know this

Fourth, God has no reason to wait and see as you would describe when you state, "Other wise God can never know the genuine article of a willfull relationship." Only God knows the heart, the secrets, the agendas. He knows the thought before we even think them. Therefore, it is impossible for God NOT to know what constitutes the genuine article long before any "man free will choices" are made.

I do not deny that God knows all there is to know. He knows us better than we know our selves. Which is why I know God does trust men once they have been convinced and convicted. There is nothing impossible for my God though there are many who would like to lock Him in and keep Him from being able to save a natural man. Jesus Christ would have never died for the natural man if he wasn't savable. Aren't you glad nothing is impossible for our God? I'm extremely glad there is none greater than my Lord.
MB

 

[agedman]

Those who hold to "man's free will" would agree that man has the capacity to choose between good and evil. This would indicate that there is some internal mechanism that can be superimposed upon the will so that it can live a perfect life.


I would challenge the "free will" holders to examine the Scriptures and state of living and find in what condition did man not fail.

In the perfection of the garden - man failed.
In the time before the flood - man failed.
Between Noah and Abraham - man failed.
From Abraham through the cross - man failed.
Throughout the church age - man failed.
In the tribulation - man will fail.
In the millennial reign - man will fail.

When does man NOT fail?

When man is given a New Nature (which includes a new will). As Paul states there is a war that continues between the new and old natures. Man may be subject to either will, but there is no FREE will, no freedom of choice.

The old will leads to destruction, the new will leads to life.

There is no in between freedom of will. The will is not free, nor is the subjection.

Some would say providing alternatives would indicate the capacity to choose. But that is assuming that all alternatives are attainable. All that a person in the old nature can do is respond to the will of the old nature. The fallen man has no ability to attain, grasp, receive, ... anything of the nature and spirit of God.

If the will is fallen, the consequence of all that will's ways are a life of destruction as the whole of human history has validated.

If a new nature resides within the believer, there is still no "free will" but a new will that wars against the old nature. By the believer being given the new nature, there is still no "freedom of choice." Either, the persons' old will rules and the body will be destroyed - yet the person saved, or the new will rules and the person enjoys the things of the Spirit of God.

There is no "freedom of choice" for both wills have consequences.

This is difficult for those of the modern century to understand. We have all been raised with the thinking that a man has the capacity to choose what is just or unjust. But, the natural person's will cannot accept anything of God. In like manner, the new nature person's will cannot accept anything of the world.

Example, the room is dark. A Light is turned on. The room does not loose all the darkness, but the darkness lurks waiting for the light to be turned out.

Who is in charge of turning on and off the light?

Some on this thread would say, the natural man can. No, because the room cannot and does not illuminate itself. God turns on the light on or off.

 

[freeatlast]

Those who hold to "man's free will" would agree that man has the capacity to choose between good and evil. This would indicate that there is some internal mechanism that can be superimposed upon the will so that it can live a perfect life.


I would challenge the "free will" holders to examine the Scriptures and state of living and find in what condition did man not fail.

In the perfection of the garden - man failed.
In the time before the flood - man failed.
Between Noah and Abraham - man failed.
From Abraham through the cross - man failed.
Throughout the church age - man failed.
In the tribulation - man will fail.
In the millennial reign - man will fail.

When does man NOT fail?

When man is given a New Nature (which includes a new will). As Paul states there is a war that continues between the new and old natures. Man may be subject to either will, but there is no FREE will, no freedom of choice.

The old will leads to destruction, the new will leads to life.

There is no in between freedom of will. The will is not free, nor is the subjection.

Some would say providing alternatives would indicate the capacity to choose. But that is assuming that all alternatives are attainable. All that a person in the old nature can do is respond to the will of the old nature. The fallen man has no ability to attain, grasp, receive, ... anything of the nature and spirit of God.

If the will is fallen, the consequence of all that will's ways are a life of destruction as the whole of human history has validated.

If a new nature resides within the believer, there is still no "free will" but a new will that wars against the old nature. By the believer being given the new nature, there is still no "freedom of choice." Either, the persons' old will rules and the body will be destroyed - yet the person saved, or the new will rules and the person enjoys the things of the Spirit of God.

There is no "freedom of choice" for both wills have consequences.

This is difficult for those of the modern century to understand. We have all been raised with the thinking that a man has the capacity to choose what is just or unjust. But, the natural person's will cannot accept anything of God. In like manner, the new nature person's will cannot accept anything of the world.

Example, the room is dark. A Light is turned on. The room does not loose all the darkness, but the darkness lurks waiting for the light to be turned out.

Who is in charge of turning on and off the light?

Some on this thread would say, the natural man can. No, because the room cannot and does not illuminate itself. God turns on the light on or off.

Man is not given a new nature so as to ne saved. All men are commanded to repent. Some men accept that command. Most refuse. Man has the free will to choose his actions.

 

[convicted1]

Any person can be saved if they will repent and come to faith.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

Man is not given a new nature so as to ne saved. All men are commanded to repent. Some men accept that command. Most refuse. Man has the free will to choose his actions.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::godisgood::jesus:

 

[convicted1]

The point is that God has given every person the enabling to repent, some just harden their hearts and refuse to do it.

anutter :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

God is Sovereign in that He has placed before us choice "A" and choice "B". Choice "A" is to believe in Him and be saved, or point "B", fail to believe that He is and suffer to consequences.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God is Sovereign in that He has placed before us choice "A" and choice "B". Choice "A" is to believe in Him and be saved, or point "B", fail to believe that He is and suffer to consequences.

I totally HATE that theology & could NOT disagree more. If that were true, than me & most people I know would be in hell. There is too much division here for me to ever be comfortable with this theology.

 

[Jim1999]

True calvinists go beyond sovereignty. We call it the absolute sovereignty of God. We also believe in free will of man under the permissive will of God; "thus far and no further" as demonstrated with Jonah.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[quantumfaith]

True calvinists go beyond sovereignty. We call it the absolute sovereignty of God. We also believe in free will of man under the permissive will of God; "thus far and no further" as demonstrated with Jonah.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim, how does one go "beyond sovereignty"? Sovereignty is simply sovereignty nothing, "absolutely nothing" diminishes it in the slightest. The differences between the "calvinist" and "non-calvinist" do not depend upon sovereignty but rather "interpretivie" issues as to HOW God expresses and uses HIS absolute sovereignty. This is the classic illustration of HIS sovereignty, that HE can and will accomplish His desire and wishes in the way in which HE wishes to accomplish them.

Blessings

 

[convicted1]

I totally HATE that theology & could NOT disagree more. If that were true, than me & most people I know would be in hell. There is too much division here for me to ever be comfortable with this theology.

"Choose you this day whom you will serve"

"I set before you a blessing and a curse, therefore choose life".

"Mary hath chosen that good part which shall not be taken from her."

 

[freeatlast]

"Choose you this day whom you will serve"

"I set before you a blessing and a curse, therefore choose life".

"Mary hath chosen that good part which shall not be taken from her."

Sounds a whole lot like free will to me. :thumbs: God chooses man but to be saved man must also choose God. The Sovereignty of God and the free will of man both working to bring about the will of God.

 

[JesusFan]

I totally HATE that theology & could NOT disagree more. If that were true, than me & most people I know would be in hell. There is too much division here for me to ever be comfortable with this theology.

you HAVE to ignore the Fall of Adam, refuse that we are now spiritual dead being found to now be in Adam by God, that jesus died to secure real salvation for his own, in order to hold to that!

basically, our salvation totally dependent upon us, and we allow/permit God to save us!

 

[MB]

Those who hold to "man's free will" would agree that man has the capacity to choose between good and evil. This would indicate that there is some internal mechanism that can be superimposed upon the will so that it can live a perfect life.

Man has always had that capacity to choose yet you claim he doesn't. If so how is that man with out God can agree with the Law even have those sames Laws in there culture. Then you say man can not choose good. You are simply wrong. Man has always chosen either evil or good. To obey the Law or not. A clear demonstration of freewill.

I would challenge the "free will" holders to examine the Scriptures and state of living and find in what condition did man not fail.

In the perfection of the garden - man failed.
In the time before the flood - man failed.
Between Noah and Abraham - man failed.
From Abraham through the cross - man failed.
Throughout the church age - man failed.
In the tribulation - man will fail.
In the millennial reign - man will fail.

When does man NOT fail?

No one is claiming that man is a success. With out God man does nothing to even find God. Not that he couldn't seek God he just doesn't. Freewill doesn't choose Christ, but freewill does give up or surrender to Christ. Even Christ said we haven't chosen Him but that He chose us. He died for those who he chose and that is everyman on earth. There is no assurance of Salvation in being chosen for Salvation. All men are drawn scripture says so.
Jn. 12:32. Being drawn doesn't assure Salvation. Only faith insures Salvation and we must have faith for Grace to come to us through faith. Eph 2:8.

When man is given a New Nature (which includes a new will). As Paul states there is a war that continues between the new and old natures. Man may be subject to either will, but there is no FREE will, no freedom of choice.

The old will leads to destruction, the new will leads to life.

There is no in between freedom of will. The will is not free, nor is the subjection.

Repetition doesn't make it true. Only scripture can do that

Some would say providing alternatives would indicate the capacity to choose. But that is assuming that all alternatives are attainable. All that a person in the old nature can do is respond to the will of the old nature. The fallen man has no ability to attain, grasp, receive, ... anything of the nature and spirit of God.

If the will is fallen, the consequence of all that will's ways are a life of destruction as the whole of human history has validated.

If a new nature resides within the believer, there is still no "free will" but a new will that wars against the old nature. By the believer being given the new nature, there is still no "freedom of choice." Either, the persons' old will rules and the body will be destroyed - yet the person saved, or the new will rules and the person enjoys the things of the Spirit of God.

There is no "freedom of choice" for both wills have consequences.

This is difficult for those of the modern century to understand. We have all been raised with the thinking that a man has the capacity to choose what is just or unjust. But, the natural person's will cannot accept anything of God. In like manner, the new nature person's will cannot accept anything of the world.

Example, the room is dark. A Light is turned on. The room does not loose all the darkness, but the darkness lurks waiting for the light to be turned out.

Who is in charge of turning on and off the light?

Some on this thread would say, the natural man can. No, because the room cannot and does not illuminate itself. God turns on the light on or off.

If the light in this room is turned on at all it is turned on by me
I'm sorry but there is no such thing as you describe and what's more it isn't found in scripture. There is no total depravity.
We can all agree that man is evil but what your view ignores is all things are possible with God. Not once in scripture is it ever indicated that man is unable to respond to the gospel. In fact the opposite is true. Why men want to believe this inability is true when scripture never says it's true only men make this false claim. If you can't prove it with the Bible it isn't true.
MB