I like that Tom....:thumbs:
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can God REALLY Be Sovereign IF mankind as a "Full" Free Will?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
I like that Tom....:thumbs:
This is not an expression of FREE will.
It is validation of what I posted.
They would not because they were not given the new nature (which includes a new will) from God.
Therefore, they being in the snare were held to the only choice they would make - rejection.
freeatlast
New Member
Yea Right! :laugh: You mean that verse is sort of like date rape?
Or needs some kind of code book to understand like the Mormons have?
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Are you being serious? I hope not! Jesus was lamenting, basically saying He wanted to gather them but He was preventing Himself from doing it, or His desire differed from the Fathers?
First, you have the thinking that man can refuse to sin, refuse to do the bidding of the enemy, and that it is all in man's freedom of choice.
That is not biblical. The only freedom of choice lasted until Adam chose Eve over God. From then on there has been nothing but rebellion, excuse, and blaming others in the natural will.
Man in the natural will always will choose to sin. Even the attempt to live righteously is a sin. (see rich young ruler)
Second, God doesn't trust man. Why should he? When has the natural man ever done anything but fail God? Even when Christ comes to rule, and the earth is dramatically aligned to His will, man fails and rebels.
Third, God does want the genuine article. That is why He implants a new nature which includes a new will into man. A new nature in which we have fellowship with Him and can appeal to Him at any time - the same as was given to Adam before he submitted to Eve. God has no fellowship with the old nature and will and has no reason to respond kindly to any appeal by that old fallen nature.
Fourth, God has no reason to wait and see as you would describe when you state, "Other wise God can never know the genuine article of a willfull relationship." Only God knows the heart, the secrets, the agendas. He knows the thought before we even think them. Therefore, it is impossible for God NOT to know what constitutes the genuine article long before any "man free will choices" are made.
freeatlast
New Member
Yes we do have a choice and the bible says we do.
Jos 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
No one has to sin. All sin is a choice. What you are talking about is the old flip Wilson theme "the devil made me do it". What you are doing is confusing the state we are born into with acts of choosing to sin. They are two different things.
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Certainly Jesus wanted to gather them. BUT they chose as all in their natural state to reject God.
This is no new doctrine or unusual thinking. It is the way of the natural man. The natural man will always reject God.
Jesus is stating that the punishment that is about to come is earned. That the folks have had, do have and will have plenty of warning, and at each time they reject.
Christ is not saying anything about them having "free will" but rather, confirming the punishment.
Look at the context:
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Note: The use of present and future tense of the words and phrases underlined?
Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
This second part is further structure encased in pointing to future events.
Man in the natural will will always fail to chose God. The natural will offers no other choice.
That is why the New Nature is implanted and that includes a new will. The two wills (old and new) then war as Paul stated more than once.
FAL, perhaps you missed the fact that Israel DID fail, they DID serve other gods. You are attempting to show that just because they were presented with a choice, that they had the ability to choose righteousness.
Just as I stated - Man in the natural will will always fail. Natural man will always choose what is not acceptable to God.
There is NO free choice because ALL choices have consequences. And man in the natural will will always choose rebellion.
That is why God doesn't reform the old will or old man, but implants a new nature which includes a new will tuned to God and the heavenly.
The thing is there is no rejection taking place as there is no real option to accept, words have meanings. There can be no true lamenting over their "choice" when there were no other options meaning by the very definition of the word there was no choice.
Sounds like Henry Ford stating consumers could choose a modell t in any color as long as it was black. No 2 or more options = no choice.
Of course there is "no true lamenting."
The best the natural man can do is worldly sorrow:
Sorry I got caught,
Sorry you don't see it from my viewpoint,
Sorry for your loss,
Sorry ...
Worldly sorrow always works death.
2 Corinthians 7:10
The ONLY time there is choice is when the person is a believer. When endowed by the new nature which includes the new will, the new will desires the things of God. The person may then chose to be subject to either the old nature or the new nature. That is the choice. There is NO free will in either.
It is a matter of subjection.
The person is either under subjection to the fallen nature or to the new nature. They may chose (providing they are saved) to which they submit.
freeatlast
New Member
Yes there is a choice. We are told to choose (repent) and that is done while lost not saved. Man has free will to choose.
Jesus lamented over Israel, I'm not talking about us lamenting. Do you want to change your answer that the lamenting was not real?
Not a problem, Jesus showed emotion. He did not "prevent himself" though, either. Jesus was stating the fact that the people in their natural willed condition would follow what the fallen will dictated to them.
There was no "free choice."
Until God places the new nature with the new will in a person, they cannot help but submit to their natural old will - for that is what they will to do.
When the believer is given the new nature which includes a new will, then it is a matter of submission. Either the believer submits to the old will or submits to the new will.
When that person submits to the old will, they sin, they fail, they ...
When that person submits to the new will, they have life, are a vessel of living water, are victorious, ...
The only choice involved is to which will the believer chooses to submit.
But there is no "free will" and the choice made have consequences.
To hold what you consider correct leads to the following doctrinal errors.
You then must agree with those who state that people can live their lives perfectly of their own free choice and by doing so make the cross of Christ of no benefit.
You must also agree that because man is free to choose, then salvation is conditional and there is no eternal security.
You must also agree that free choice means that there is no eternal heaven or hell, and man makes whatever heaven and hell out of the life they live.
You already have stated that a person that commits sin is an unbeliever. When asked specifically if you still held the word "practice" as a qualifier, you went on to post that a person who breaks the commandments is an unbeliever.
You claim that if a person isn't baptized then they are an unbeliever.
You want to hold on so tightly that a person can choose, yet even the Scriptures teach that the lost cannot choose God, and that the sorrow of the lost lead to death.
Every Scripture you have trotted out has been shown weak. The people of Israel FAILED because they could only follow what they willed which was to fail. Were they shown alternatives - YES, but they could only follow what they willed - to fail - their fallen wills willed their lives.
The Scriptures of Jesus proclaiming doom over Jerusalem show the will to failure. The people were told, they were shown alternatives, but they had no capacity to choose righteousness - their will was fallen and therefore they in the natural state would fail. They had no capacity to choose righteousness. It was not in their nature.
Because alternatives are presented does NOT mean that a person has the capacity to choose.
Scorpion and frog - scorpion stung because it is in his nature - there was no "freedom" of choice.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Enlighten us! If Jesus Christ laid aside use of all His divinity then how did He:
1. Walk on water?
2. Raise the dead?
3. Calm the seas"
4. Etc, etc!
Types that to fast! Meant to see that Jesus while on earth laid aside the use of His divine attributes, still was God, just chose to live as a man!
And those times were when He decided to temp reassert His divine attributes again...
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Yea Right! :laugh: You mean that verse is sort of like date rape?
neither!
just saying that due to the fall of Adam, His disobedience passed down to us a fallen nature, that cannot chose 'freely" any more for God, as its very nature is to be at war against God and cannot be controlled...
That is why NONE seek the true God of their own voliation, following instead man made gods and religions...
ONLY God can cause one to be reborn again, Divine act of His Will to save thom he has chosen in jesus to receive eternal life..
God does NOT depend upon mans 'free will", since we no longer have it in same sense Adam once did have, and he has secured His own in Christ, not relying upon ole feeble us!
I'm sorry, but that's plain ridiculous. What emotion was He showing when it was His will (or the contradictory will of the Father) that was keeping them in that state? God is not bipolar.
So what was He emotional about? His lament is meaningless since He never gave them the new will.
You are begging the question by assuming regeneration precedes faith.
How do you (and those holding to this view) not see the obvious conflict and contradiction? If there is no free will, there is NO CHOICE. Unbelievers in your doctrine should be labeled "cantbelievers"
Those holding to your concept of full free will still there today might better be called "God cannot save us unless we permit Him the freedom to do such!"
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freeatlast
New Member
Sounds like you really have the date rape of the scripture down to an art. The way you interpret scrtipture we do not need a bible. What we need is a code book to translate what is written into what it does nto say. However I choose to believe the bible as given. God elects, man chooses. Both are true according to scripture. God's election does not override man's free will choice and man's choice does not lesson God's sovereign choice.