Theoretical sinlessness

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Moriah: I did not say ALL thoughts are sin.

HP: I agree and did not say you had said that. You inferred, as I read you, that if the thought continued, it would indicate sin had formed.

 

[Moriah]

If you infer it is sin now, you are wrong.

Why are you not resisting Satan? See James 4:7. Why are you not thinking of whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things. See Philippians 4:8. You are the one who cannot get the wicked thoughts out of your mind, yet you tell me I am wrong? I am trying to help you to overcome. Here are some more teachings from Jesus that you will do if you love him.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Moriah: Why are you not resisting Satan? See James 4:7. Why are you not thinking of whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.

HP: I am doing precisely as Scripture tells me to, but some images remain in spite of everything. The mind is a powerful thing that cannot simply be erased, quickly at least. What I am doing by seeking good thoughts is to insure I do not allow that image to influence my will into forming intents in relationship to it. I am, with the help of the Holy Spirit, suppressing those evil thoughts and not allowing them to control my will and subsequent actions.

Moriah: See Philippians 4:8. You are the one who cannot get the wicked thoughts out of your mind, yet you tell me I am wrong?

HP: I am telling you no ones mind can simply destroy imprints upon it. What we can do with the help of the Holy Spirit is not to allow those thoughts to control our will.


Moriah, I know full well you have good intentions and I thank you for that. I am trying to get you to separate the will itself from the sensibilities or mere impressions upon the mind. I am trying to get across the point that temptation is not sin and thoughts in and of themselves are not necessarily sin. For sin to be conceived the will has to act in accordance to thoughts etc. and form intents in the direction of selfishness as opposed to benevolence and obedience to God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

We are called upon to forgive. We may never be able to rid our minds of thoughts involved when one does another wrong, but what we can do with the help of the Lord is to treat the other person as though they never did us wrong. I may not be able to forget entirely, but I can make certain I do not form acts of revenge with my will, and I can form intents in the will to treat them as if though they had never done such a thing.

 

[DHK]

HP: I would disagree on this point as I have in the past. Not one of the passages you mention state or imply that me are born evil. Because I have refuted every one of them in times past I will not do so here unless one would request it.

There is no such thing as "theoretical sinlessness" just as there is no such thing as sinlessness in reality, with the exception of Jesus Christ who is God come in the flesh. This is a discussion which Paul calls "vain."

As for the verses I posted you have not refuted a single one. You have only given your unfounded opinions.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK is that your opinion or is that just pure poppycock? (Those are your only two choices.):laugh:

 

[Moriah]

Moriah: Why are you not resisting Satan? See James 4:7. Why are you not thinking of whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.

HP: I am doing precisely as Scripture tells me to, but some images remain in spite of everything. The mind is a powerful thing that cannot simply be erased, quickly at least. What I am doing by seeking good thoughts is to insure I do not allow that image to influence my will into forming intents in relationship to it. I am, with the help of the Holy Spirit, suppressing those evil thoughts and not allowing them to control my will and subsequent actions.

HP: I am telling you no ones mind can simply destroy imprints upon it. What we can do with the help of the Holy Spirit is not to allow those thoughts to control our will.


Moriah, I know full well you have good intentions and I thank you for that. I am trying to get you to separate the will itself from the sensibilities or mere impressions upon the mind. I am trying to get across the point that temptation is not sin and thoughts in and of themselves are not necessarily sin. For sin to be conceived the will has to act in accordance to thoughts etc. and form intents in the direction of selfishness as opposed to benevolence and obedience to God.

You said: I am doing precisely as Scripture tells me to, but some images remain in spite of everything. The mind is a powerful thing that cannot simply be erased, quickly at least.

My reply: I did not say it would be quick or not.

You said: What I am doing by seeking good thoughts is to insure I do not allow that image to influence my will into forming intents in relationship to it. I am, with the help of the Holy Spirit, suppressing those evil thoughts and not allowing them to control my will and subsequent actions.

My reply: Sounds like you are doing the right thing. I am not so sure about the “suppressing” part. There are other things you can do too.

You said: I am telling you no ones mind can simply destroy imprints upon it. What we can do with the help of the Holy Spirit is not to allow those thoughts to control our will. Moriah, I know full well you have good intentions and I thank you for that. I am trying to get you to separate the will itself from the sensibilities or mere impressions upon the mind.

My reply: I do not think you fully understand what I said. Why do you think you need to get me to separate the will from the impression?

You said: I am trying to get across the point that temptation is not sin and thoughts in and of themselves are not necessarily sin.

My reply: You do not have to get that across to me. Where did I ever say temptation was sin? Where did I say thoughts in and of themselves are sins?

You said: For sin to be conceived the will has to act in accordance to thoughts etc. and form intents in the direction of selfishness as opposed to benevolence and obedience to God.

My reply: Glad to see you are coming to accept the role thoughts have to sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Moriah: I do not think you fully understand what I said. Why do you think you need to get me to separate the will from the impression?

HP: Possibly I was mistaken and you have a great understanding of the distinction. If so, please forgive me. I may be slow but sometimes at least I catch on. :thumbsup:

 

[Moriah]

There is no such thing as "theoretical sinlessness" just as there is no such thing as sinlessness in reality, with the exception of Jesus Christ who is God come in the flesh. This is a discussion which Paul calls "vain."

As for the verses I posted you have not refuted a single one. You have only given your unfounded opinions.

There is such a thing as theoretical sinlessness. It is about the fact that all have the ability to do right, but they will not succeed, not without the Lord.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thoughts can be like the wind. How's that?:thumbs:

 

[Moriah]

Thoughts can be like the wind. How's that?:thumbs:

No! Not like the wind. Lol

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: but they will not succeed, not without the Lord.

HP: DHK, now who wouldn't agree with that statement?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

:But with God all things are possible!

 

[Winman]

There is no such thing as "theoretical sinlessness" just as there is no such thing as sinlessness in reality, with the exception of Jesus Christ who is God come in the flesh. This is a discussion which Paul calls "vain."

As for the verses I posted you have not refuted a single one. You have only given your unfounded opinions.

Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Jesus does not lie, or make misleading statements. He told the lawyer that if he kept all the commandments he would live. And this was concerning eternal life, it was the answer to the question, "Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?".

Now, why didn't Jesus answer like you, that there are no works he could do to inherit eternal life? Seems like a simple enough answer. Did Jesus have to say this to convince the man he was a sinner? Could he have easily asked, "Have you kept all these commandments perfectly?" Could he not point out the man's sins as he did the woman at the well when he said she had 5 husbands?

Jesus was telling the truth. If a man perfectly kept the law, he would inherit eternal life as he would have no sin.

And don't misrepresent me as saying any man can earn life, the scriptures clearly say all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God, therefore no man can be saved except by faith in Christ.

Nevertheless, Jesus's words were 100% truth. He was not playing a game with the man.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Winman: Nevertheless, Jesus's words were 100% truth. He was not playing a game with the man.

HP: I fully agree. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

DHK is that your opinion or is that just pure poppycock? (Those are your only two choices.):laugh:

What I said is truth.
I have given you Scripture.
You have not been able to refute them despite your claims.
There is no such thing as sinlessness for mankind: theoretical or real.
You have only stated opinion, and not fact.
You actually avoid the Scriptures.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Here is a point so often misunderstood. If in fact it a man has ever lived free from sin, it would not prove or suggest that man did it alone. When Adam walked with God in the garden sinless, God was at work in the heart of Adam influencing him to righteousness. Certainly Adam's will was involved in his choices, but still Adam would not have acted righteously apart from the influences of God. So it is a false conclusion, a strawman so to speak, to suggest that sinlessness would be accomplished apart from God even if it was accomplished but for just a period of time. If righteousness is the result of man's will, God and His influences are always involved.

God's involvement does not negate the fact that man is the first cause of all his moral choices.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Moriah, was it the sin nature that you said was like the wind, or what was that comment?

 

[Moriah]

Moriah, was it the sin nature that you said was like the wind, or what was that comment?

I never referred to the wind. I said thoughts are like the air, bad thoughts anyway, since Satan is the prince of the air. The reason I say not like the wind is because Jesus said, "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." I just did not want to say all thoughts are like the wind since Jesus explains those being born of the Spirit using the analogy of the wind. KWIM?

 

[DHK]

Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Does it feel good when you take statements out of their context to justify an unorthodox if not heretical position such as Pelagianism?
Jesus said to the woman who was accused of committing adultery:
Go and sin no more.
Was that a possibility for her? Did she ever sin again?
Mat.5:48 "Be perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect? Are you?
Be holy even as your Father in heaven is holy. Are you?
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, all thy soul, all thy mind and thy strength. Have you obeyed this command? All of your life?

Shall I go on? There are many commands that you cannot keep. You cannot keep the Ten Commandments.
The Word of God says:

(1Jn 1:8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(1Jn 1:10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
--If you can keep the law, and never sin, then you:
deceive yourself,
the truth is not in you,
you make Christ a liar,
and God's Word is not in you.

Jesus does not lie, or make misleading statements. He told the lawyer that if he kept all the commandments he would live. And this was concerning eternal life, it was the answer to the question, "Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?".

Jesus is the author of the Bible as well, and does not contradict himself.
You jump into the middle of a conversation and don't wait to hear the conclusion?? How rude! No wonder you don't understand the Bible. You don't even consider why the lawyer was asking the question in the first place. It is all supposition. Why not go join a philosophy board.

Now, why didn't Jesus answer like you, that there are no works he could do to inherit eternal life? Seems like a simple enough answer. Did Jesus have to say this to convince the man he was a sinner? Could he have easily asked, "Have you kept all these commandments perfectly?" Could he not point out the man's sins as he did the woman at the well when he said she had 5 husbands?

He didn't have to. The man was guilty of sin, and knew it. If you keep reading you find that our. You stopped at verse 28. Why?

(Luk 10:29) But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
--People who need to justify their own words are guilty of saying something wrong. Immediately he asks: "And who is my neighbor?" As if to say, "Just who in the world do you think I am supposed to love?" He was proud and arrogant, trying to justify himself instead of accepting the answer Jesus gave. He did not accept the words of Jesus. He tried to justify himself instead.

Someone else did the same thing:
(Luk 18:10) Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
(Luk 18:11) The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

(Luk 18:13) And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
(Luk 18:14) I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Pharisee justified himself; but the publican was justified, and not the Pharisee in Jesus eyes.

Jesus was telling the truth. If a man perfectly kept the law, he would inherit eternal life as he would have no sin.

Jesus never said that. It is significantly a horrible act when you misrepresent the words of Christ. Would not you think that that is akin to blasphemy? To misrepresent my words or Rippon's words or another's words is one thing, but to misrepresent the words of Jesus is a terrible thing to do. And that is precisely what you are doing. Jesus never said that a man could perfectly keep the law, and you said he did. That misrepresentation is terrible.

And don't misrepresent me as saying any man can earn life, the scriptures clearly say all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God, therefore no man can be saved except by faith in Christ.

I am quoting you. There should therefore be no misrepresentation on my part, right? However it does look like you are saying one thing and then turning around and saying the opposite. You can't have it both ways.

Nevertheless, Jesus's words were 100% truth. He was not playing a game with the man.

He does not play games at all. Salvation is not by works. A man cannot get to heaven by works, and never could. Why would you post heresy on this board if you know it is not true?