Revelation 4:1 - Apostle John "Raptured"

[JesusFan]

Not to split hairs, but I would have to disagree with that.

I would affirm that Paul, in the first century...taught the pre-trib rapture.

God bless.

I also believe that the Bible teaches a pre trib rapture, but was just addressing the prior posting that seemed to infer that darby brought to church Dispy "out of the blue!"

 

[Darrell C]

I also believe that the Bible teaches a pre trib rapture, but was just addressing the prior posting that seemed to infer that darby brought to church Dispy "out of the blue!"

Sorry JF, not trying to be disagreeable...lol.

The statement...

Darby added in the concept of a pre trib rapture, rest though was already established, he just added on to it!

...just seemed to echo what many post-trib believers use as one of their arguments against a pre-trib rapture.

Darby may have been famous for this teaching, but I think you will agree that it originated in the first century beginning with Paul, as you seem to affirm here.

Sorry for the confusion,

God bless.

 

[JesusFan]

Sorry JF, not trying to be disagreeable...lol.

The statement...



...just seemed to echo what many post-trib believers use as one of their arguments against a pre-trib rapture.

Darby may have been famous for this teaching, but I think you will agree that it originated in the first century beginning with Paul, as you seem to affirm here.

Sorry for the confusion,

God bless.

probably better way for me to have said it was that darby was the one credited for discovering that in the Bible, though was in there by Apostle paul already!

 

[percho]

Hello Percho, just something to consider:


Their resurrection takes place within the Second Woe, the Seventh Trumpet judgment being the Third Woe, making it an impossibility that the resurrection of the two witnesses is the same resurrection as that described in Revelation 20, though it be called the "First" resurrection.

Also to consider is that the Third Woe unleashes the seven Vial judgments, leaving us to conclude that the Tribulation period is still ongoing.

I have talked with those that because of the similarities between the judgments, see the Vial judgments as actually describing the previous judgments, though an examination of the judgments themselves reveal differences that cannot be denied.

God bless.

I do not know that Rev 20 is chronological to the previous chapters but that it establishes the day of the Lord as being a thousand years. John was in spirit in the Lord's day and told to write, which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Thou has seen being the churches. up to the resurrection of afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
the things which are being on the day of the Lord. One thousand years.
the things which shall be after the day of the Lord Chapters 21-22

Do you think maybe the vial judgments could be related to ruling with a rod of iron? It has been a while since I have given much thought to this. Ruling in the concept of, Zech 14:16-18

 

[OldRegular]

So far the best debate has been from Progressive Dispensationalists, in my view. Of course, the primary issue is whether the catching away is pre or post-trib. Love that dicussion.
.

Just goes to show that the Holy Spirit is having some success in bringing people to the truth!

 

[JesusFan]

Just goes to show that the Holy Spirit is having some success in bringing people to the truth!

agreed, as we are not appointed by god to suffer His wrath, so will be long gone before His judgement day falls!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular

One further point, actually three:

1. I will discuss, argue, debate, whatever eschatology with dispensationalists but their opinion on that subject does not really matter, we could all be wrong but Jesus Christ is coming back.

Response by Darrell C
Why does their opinion not matter?

This says you will not discuss, argue, debate...whatever, that you will merely submit what you feel is a superior understanding, and you do not care if anyone else agrees with you.

In something that is this important, when and how Christ returns, is not worthy of seeking to persuade men...what is the point?

Please read and understand the entire post before jumping the gun. I have emphasized the statement for your edification!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
2. The biggest problem I have with dispensational doctrine is their belief Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic kingdom for the Jews, that he was rejected by the Jews and established the Church instead. Jesus Christ died for the Church and to say that the Church is a parenthesis in God's program for Israel is a despicable doctrine!

Response by Darrell C.
It is true that God has promised a kingdom for Israel, fulfilled in part in the conquest of Canaan, but yet not fulfilled according to the promises of God in full.

Israel was right to place their faith in God and believe that what He had promised, He would do. The Law, the First Covenant did not make void God's promises, and it did not fulfill them. Israel has been blinded, but one day, that veil will be removed, and Israel's restoration will coincide with fulfillment of her judgment.

The Tribulation will lead her to belief and repentance. Those that do not repent...will die.

You have totally ignored the statement:

2. The biggest problem I have with dispensational doctrine is their belief Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic kingdom for the Jews, that he was rejected by the Jews and established the Church instead. Jesus Christ died for the Church and to say that the Church is a parenthesis in God's program for Israel is a despicable doctrine!

 

[OldRegular]

Also to consider is that the Third Woe unleashes the seven Vial judgments, leaving us to conclude that the Tribulation period is still ongoing.

The True Church will always undergo tribulation.

John 15:18
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[OldRegular]

I also believe that the Bible teaches a pre trib rapture, but was just addressing the prior posting that seemed to infer that darby brought to church Dispy "out of the blue!"

Some people argue that Darby's dispensationalism was the outcome of a supposed special revelation to one Margaret MacDonald of Port Glasgow, Scotland. Her revelation was first published in Robert Norton's Memoirs of James & George Macdonald, of Port Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. Norton published it again in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp. 15-18.

I would note that

Seventh Day Adventism
Christian Science
Mormonism

are all the result of special revelation?????????

Jehovah's Witnesses are big on the millennium but apparently Taze Russell did not have a vision! Perhaps he just expanded on Darby!

 

[beameup]

It is not by "mistake" that the Holy Spirit puts the "rapture" of John
after the 7 Churches and before the Great (and Terrible) Tribulation.

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven:....
... Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The Church will be "spectators" of events unfolding on the earth
when the FALSE CHRIST is revealed for the humans to worship.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that
is called God, or that is worshipped [as God]; so that he
as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thes 2:3-4

Short of screaming in your ear, I don't know how much greater the Holy Spirit could emphasize the magnitude of this abomination.

 

[percho]

Sorry JF, not trying to be disagreeable...lol.

The statement...



...just seemed to echo what many post-trib believers use as one of their arguments against a pre-trib rapture.

Darby may have been famous for this teaching, but I think you will agree that it originated in the first century beginning with Paul, as you seem to affirm here.

Sorry for the confusion,

God bless.

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Not to split hairs, but I would have to disagree with that.

I would affirm that Paul, in the first century...taught the pre-trib rapture.

God bless.

I do not believe Paul taught a pre-trib rapture.

Paul in the area of Galatia Acts 14:19-22 And there came thither [certain] Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew [him] out of the city, supposing he had been dead. Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe. And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and [to] Iconium, and Antioch, Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

I believe I have shown from scripture that Jesus the Christ by the firstfruits of resurrection became the foundation of the church he is building and that his church will be resurrected into (to inherit) the kingdom of God. In A20:25 Paul states, "And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more."

Paul preached the gospel of the kingdom of God everywhere he went and the importance of the death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ relative to our inheriting that kingdom.

Acts 17 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that (the) Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is (the) Christ. The anointed one. Verse
7 Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus.

Paul was preaching the kingdom of God by resurrection from the dead.


Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation (even unto death) enter into the kingdom of God.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;

 

[OldRegular]

agreed, as we are not appointed by god to suffer His wrath, so will be long gone before His judgement day falls!

There is no Scripture that teaches this doctrine; rather it is the invention of man.

 

[OldRegular]

Darby added in the concept of a pre trib rapture, rest though was already established, he just added on to it!

Just shows what trouble you get into when you start inventing Scripture!

 

[OldRegular]

I would affirm that Paul, in the first century...taught the pre-trib rapture.

If Paul taught it there should be a Scripture reference. Could you provide it!

 

[percho]

Just shows what trouble you get into when you start inventing Scripture!
There is no Scripture that teaches this doctrine; rather it is the invention of man.

I agree with you OR. From Jesus I would say the opposite was taught.

And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:

I would also say that baptism included death.

 

[Tom Butler]

How do we resolve the obvious conflict between the view that all believers are not on earth during the Tribulation, and Revelation 7?

w9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Here John describes people from many nations and races. Then he gets a question:

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These are believers, mostly Gentiles, who were in the Tribulation, died (more likely killed), and are now in heaven.

If the "Church" is raptured out, who are these Gentile believers who were in the Tribulation?

 

[beameup]

If the "Church" is raptured out, who are these Gentile believers who were in the Tribulation?

A multitude of Gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation,
this is the "main harvest". The Gospel spread during the
Tribulation by those who are "left behind" and turn to Christ.

Rev 14:6
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach
unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

 

[OldRegular]

A multitude of Gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation,
this is the "main harvest". The Gospel spread during the
Tribulation by those who are "left behind" and turn to Christ.

Another nonsensical belief of dispensationalism. More people [Gentiles] are to be saved during 7 years by "whoever" than during the thousands of years the Gospel is preached by the Church. Just another indication that some dispensationalists think the Church is a failure. Very sad!!!

And just who are these "whoever" who preach the Gospel and how do they get saved if there are no Christians and the Holy Spirit is removed prior to the Great Tribulation. And which Gospel is preached beameup, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Gospel of Paul, or the everlasting Gospel? If they are Gentiles it must be the Gospel of Paul!

Hyper-dispensationalism really gets ridiculous doesn't it!

 

[beameup]

And just who are these "whoever" who preach the Gospel and how do they get saved if there are no Christians and the Holy Spirit is removed prior to the Great Tribulation.

The Holy Spirit is not "removed" prior to the Tribulation. The Holy Spirit indwelling believers is all that is "removed".
Otherwise, during the Tribulation the Holy Spirit will be as He was prior to Acts Chapter 2. duh

After we are gone it's (genetic) Israel's turn... again... just like it was in the Book of Acts.
The Gospel was spread apart from the Organized Roman Church throughout the Dark Ages by word of mouth... "from faith to faith".

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. - Rom 1:17
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead,
thou shalt be saved. - Rom 10:8-9

I think we are losing sight of the fact that God's plan and purpose is to save as many people from Hell as He can.
If that involves God using different means and methods and even changing His methods to accomplish this, then who are we to argue with God?