Salvation in Catholic and Baptist Theology

[The Biblicist]

You really are reaching. Jesus was speaking in Hyperbole and just because I use Holy which means set apart doesn't mean I'm referring to God. It means the man is set apart as an elder of the Church which itself is Holy and set apart. And I have a Holy Cup which I only use for Coffee and nothing else. Its set apart for just coffee. I'm not saying my cup is Godly.

Again, the argument is not over the use of the term "father" or "elder" but over the direct address "Holy Father"! This expression by Biblical context is restricted to God alone as it is NEVER EVER used by the Holy Spirit in Scripture for any other being including Christ much less coffee, elders or apostles!

But to add "MOST holy Father" is so blasphemeous that only a blind and deaf man could not see it as the pope is not the "MOST" holy father literally or by hyperbole and even common sense should see the obvious blasphemy in that. A former Catholic admited the phrase "holy father" came from the Traditional phrase "MOST holy father."

Tell, if this is such a general expression like for coffee, and all children of God then why don't you start calling your dad "MOST holy father" since he ALONE was SET APART by God to father you. Why don't you start calling every dad in your congregation "HOLY father" since they are all set apart as fathers?

Only pure blind dogma refuses to see the utter arrogance and blasphemy of such a title of address to a sinful man when there is no question, no debate that the Bibical context of that phrase is restricted to God alone.

 

[JarJo]

"The prefix The Most Honourable is a title of quality attached to the names of marquesses in the United Kingdom"

According to this logic, people who call a 'marquess' Most Honourable, are guilty of treason against Her Majesty the Queen, for they are making the claim that a marquess is of greater honour than the queen.

Of course, this is just a title. It doesn't actually mean "the most" it's just an honorary.

 

[The Biblicist]

I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt, that his children call him "dad" and not "father", which is clearly forbidden in the bible.

AGain, the issue is not over the term "father." The issue is over the direct address "holy father." The issue is over the restricted Biblical context of this direct address used in Scripture.

Attempting to reduce this to an argument over the use of the term "father" is simply a ploy to esape the truth which is over the direct address "Holy Father."

Let me put it this way. The term "Lord" [adonai] is applied to God and to men but when it is joined to "God" as "Lord God" it would be blasphemous to address any man this way. The term "father" is applied to God and to men but when it is joined to "Holy" as "Holy Father" it would be blasphemeous to address any man this way because it is EXCLUSIVELY used to address only God in scripture EQUALLY AS "Lord God" is used exclusively to address only God in Scripture.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Again, the argument is not over the use of the term "father" or "elder" but over the direct address "Holy Father"! This expression by Biblical context is restricted to God alone as it is NEVER EVER used by the Holy Spirit in Scripture for any other being including Christ much less coffee, elders or apostles!

Then you issue is using the word Holy which means set apart for a specific purpose in conjunction with Father is you issue? I'm sorry but then my epigraph using Mr. President is also applicable in this discussion another word you will never see in scriptures.

But to add "MOST holy Father" is so blasphemeous that only a blind and deaf man could not see it as the pope is not the "MOST" holy father literally or by hyperbole and even common sense should see the obvious blasphemy in that. A former Catholic admited the phrase "holy father" came from the Traditional phrase "MOST holy father

To be honest I have never heard the term Most Holy Father applied to the Pope ever. His Holiness The Pope;
- Bishop Of Rome And Vicar Of Jesus Christ;
- Successor Of St. Peter, Prince Of The Apostles;
- Supreme Pontiff Of The Universal Church;
- Patriarch Of The West;
- Servant Of The Servants Of God;
- Primate Of Italy;
- Archbishop And Metropolitan Of The Roman Province;
- Sovereign Of Vatican City State.

These are the Titles I'm familiar with. Never Most Holy Father. I think you made that up.

 

[The Biblicist]

"As I said before, it should make you cringe to call the Catholic leader “Holy Father.”

The title “Holy Father” is taken from the Latin Beatissimus Pater, “Most Blessed Father”, which refers to his office as the supreme spiritual Father of the whole Church …(Lumen Gentium #22).

Walter made it up if it is really made up! So take it to him TS

 

[JarJo]

Let me put it this way. The term "Lord" [adonai] is applied to God and to men but when it is joined to "God" as "Lord God" it would be blasphemous to address any man this way. The term "father" is applied to God and to men but when it is joined to "Holy" as "Holy Father" it would be blasphemeous to address any man this way because it is EXCLUSIVELY used to address only God in scripture EQUALLY AS "Lord God" is used exclusively to address only God in Scripture.

By this logic, it would be blasphemy to call someone a "wonderful counsellor" because that phrase is used to describe Jesus in the bible.

I think it could be blasphemy if 'wonderful counselor' was used intentionally to compare someone to Christ. On the other hand if it was used innocently it would be fine. Same with 'holy father'.

 

[The Biblicist]

Let me put it this way. The term "Lord" [adonai] is applied to God and to men but when it is joined to "God" as "Lord God" it would be blasphemous to address any man this way. The term "father" is applied to God and to men but when it is joined to "Holy" as "Holy Father" it would be blasphemeous to address any man this way because it is EXCLUSIVELY used to address only God in scripture EQUALLY AS "Lord God" is used exclusively to address only God in Scripture.

The Scriptural use of terms is the basis for judging the Biblical application. Not modern cultural use of terms today. Not tradition. Not Rome.

The Word of God restricts "Holy Father" to the very same Person that the Word of God restricts "Lord God" and any man assuming either title or accepting men addressing them as such is a usurper of God.

 

[WestminsterMan]

I did not accuse anyone of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Therefore, you can stop with the false accusations.

Hmmm.... Just for the record:

What blasphemy that you are a part of, giving sinful man the name reserved for God, putting that man in long flowing robes, taking the seat of most importance, people even kissing his feet! How is it that you do not see the evil in all this?

The last time I checked, if one is part of a blasphemy then by necessity, one must also be a blasphemer. Stop with the false denials. Those are your words not mine. If you didn't intend to state that, then why did you write it in the first place?

I want us to be like minded in Christ, and that is why I discuss the truth. When I was in a false religion, and when someone else kept telling me how evil it was, I repented of it, and I am thankful that they spoke to me.

And just how do you know that you are not now still in a false religion? After all, by your own admission, you were decieved once before.

If Catholics love God as they say they do then they would stop doing things against God.

Let me see if I can translate this: "If Catholics love God as they say they do then they would stop doing things [that I believe are] against God." Emphasis mine.

It's the height of presumption to state with certainty that Catholics "do things against God". Some Catholics might very well do that, but not with the guidance and approval of the RCC. Heck... they probably see some of things that Protestants do as being against God. Turn on TBN and get back to me on that attitude.

WM

 

[JarJo]

The Scriptural use of terms is the basis for judging the Biblical application. Not modern cultural use of terms today. Not tradition. Not Rome.

The Word of God restricts "Holy Father" to the very same Person that the Word of God restricts "Lord God" and any man assuming either title or accepting men addressing them as such is a usurper of God.

The Word of God doesn't restrict the term holy father. Your argument is just that scripture never USES the term for anyone else besides God. That's not the same.

You haven't answered my point about 'wonderful counselor', which is only used to describe Jesus in the bible.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Walter made it up if it is really made up! So take it to him TS

I don't know if you caught the phrase but Walter is saying the original term was Most Blessed Father in which case the term blessed is connotative of highly favored. Most Highly Favored Father. The Greek term in the NT to connotate Blessings was eulogeitos which literally meant to Kneel so Most Kneeling Father? It also meant to pray over a thing with many prayers. So it isn't the same thing.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It's the height of presumption to state with certainty that Catholics "do things against God". Some Catholics might very well do that, but not with the guidance and approval of the RCC. Heck... they probably see some of things that Protestants do as being against God. Turn on TBN and get back to me on that attitude.

WM

I heard a Catholic Critize a Protestant church saying that it had no reverance for God. Even the Church looked more like a consert hall geared for entertainment than one focused on God. I explained that the focus was on the word of God and the preaching and the lack of rememberances was due to their puritan background which would have no Iconography. But you get the point. It goes both ways.

 

[The Biblicist]

I heard a Catholic Critize a Protestant church saying that it had no reverance for God. Even the Church looked more like a consert hall geared for entertainment than one focused on God. I explained that the focus was on the word of God and the preaching and the lack of rememberances was due to their puritan background which would have no Iconography. But you get the point. It goes both ways.

There is no excuse for any type of false worship by any denomination. However, the Roman Catholic church is corrupted in every aspect of it. Sacramentalism is its foundation for soteriology which is completely antibibical. It's officers, its government, its basis of authority are all corrupt and grounded in a mixture of Old Testament judaism and paganism.

It is more corrupted than what many regard as cultic Christian denominations (LDS, JW's, New Age Christianity, etc.).

 

[WestminsterMan]

There is no excuse for any type of false worship by any denomination. However, the Roman Catholic church is corrupted in every aspect of it. Sacramentalism is its foundation for soteriology which is completely antibibical. It's officers, its government, its basis of authority are all corrupt and grounded in a mixture of Old Testament judaism and paganism.

It is more corrupted than what many regard as cultic Christian denominations (LDS, JW's, New Age Christianity, etc.).

Pure opinion!

WM

 

[The Biblicist]

Pure opinion!

WM

The snow is getting deep. I mean I looked out side my study and we have two feet of snow that fell last night. Of course that is just my "opinion" but I stepped out into it and it came well over my 12 inch boots right up beneath my knee cap and I am 6'1".

 

[DHK]

The snow is getting deep. I mean I looked out side my study and we have two feet of snow that fell last night. Of course that is just my "opinion" but I stepped out into it and it came well over my 12 inch boots right up beneath my knee cap and I am 6'1".

Not much snow here but the temperature outside is close to minus 30 with a windchill factor at times colder than minus 50. It's been like that all week, and expected to continue for a few more days yet.

 

[WestminsterMan]

The snow is getting deep. I mean I looked out side my study and we have two feet of snow that fell last night. Of course that is just my "opinion" but I stepped out into it and it came well over my 12 inch boots right up beneath my knee cap and I am 6'1".

When you can measure your accusations with your boots then I'll be with you 100%.

WM

 

[Walter]

Not much snow here but the temperature outside is close to minus 30 with a windchill factor at times colder than minus 50. It's been like that all week, and expected to continue for a few more days yet.

Snow is so beautiful and it never gets cold enough where I live to snow. But then, if it did, I wouldn't be surfing right now!

 

[Moriah]

You don't want to admit the truth and you still haven't answered about the use of the word father by children etc. So I can make the same accusation of you:

It is a horrendous thing that Biblisist does, committing offensive practices against God, and then making excuses for it while continuing to hold on to those practices. Insisting that his children call him father against the word of Jesus Christ! Biblicist makes a mockery of the bible when the bible clearly states
You show your disdaine for God and lead your children astray by having them or even allowing them to call you Father!!!! The bible Says You caused your children to sin by having them call you Father what a great evil and against the word of God!!!!

If I were pentecostal I would say God-huh! Where is my white hankercheif I feel a sermon comming on!

I forgot that you are so blind that you even missed my answer about children calling their earthly dads ‘father.’ Jesus was talking about SPIRITUAL BROTHERS CALLING THEMSELVES ‘FATHER.’ Jesus was talking TO and ABOUT spiritual brothers, not biological brothers. Jesus TELLS us NOT to call ourselves ‘father, ‘and that we are all BROTHERS.

NOW, TELL US, HOW DO YOU OBEY JESUS WHEN HE SAYS NOT TO CALL YOUR BROTHER IN CHRIST 'FATHER'? I DO NOT WANT YOU TO GET AWAY WITHOUT ANSWERING.

 

[Moriah]

Hmmm.... Just for the record:



The last time I checked, if one is part of a blasphemy then by necessity, one must also be a blasphemer. Stop with the false denials. Those are your words not mine. If you didn't intend to state that, then why did you write it in the first place?




And just how do you know that you are not now still in a false religion? After all, by your own admission, you were decieved once before.



Let me see if I can translate this: "If Catholics love God as they say they do then they would stop doing things [that I believe are] against God." Emphasis mine.

It's the height of presumption to state with certainty that Catholics "do things against God". Some Catholics might very well do that, but not with the guidance and approval of the RCC. Heck... they probably see some of things that Protestants do as being against God. Turn on TBN and get back to me on that attitude.

WM

You do blasphemy against God when you call your Pope “Holy Father.”
I repented of following the false religion that I was in, and then soon after that Jesus saved me. We must watch our doctrine carefully, and check to see if what others teach us is in the Bible.
As for you wanting to discuss other false religions and doctrine, start a new post, I would love to discuss, but in this thread, we are talking about the Catholic religion.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Actually the OP is about a discussion of differences in Salvation theologies (Catholic / Baptist) ....lets try to stay on track!