The Promises to Abraham – the Promise of the Land

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Moriah and The Biblicist,
I would like to respond to a few of the verses raised throughout this thread. Perhaps to close comments on Hebrews 12:1, as stated in the last post, there is a link between the usage of the word witness in Hebrews 11:2,4,5 with Hebrews 12:1. This is reinforced and summarised in Hebrews 11:39 where the same word witness is set directly against Hebrews 12:1. Removing the chapter division clarifies that the word “wherefore” or “therefore” directly connects 11:39-12:1. Again the connection between the usage of “witness” is a little obscure in the KJV but clearer in ASV:
Hebrews 11:39-12:1 (KJV): 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Hebrews 11:39-12:1 (ASV): 39And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith, received not the promise, 40God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
1 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

The disciples in the time of Christ did not believe in an immortal soul going to heaven when they died, but believed in their resurrection at the return of Christ, to inherit the promises made to Abraham.

They most certainly did (believe in an immortal soul going to heaven when they died)! Jesus taught it very clearly (Jn. 11:26; Mt. 22:32; Lk 16:19-31; Lk 23:43; etc.).

Final question: Do you believe that man has an immortal soul as well as an immortal spirit?

I have already shown you from scripture that the SPIRITS of the faithful dead were in heaven. I have also proven that they are conscious.
I have given you powerful scriptures that plainly tell you what happens to the spirit of the faithful.
As for your final question, it does not make sense. A soul is a living physical body with a spirit. A spirit can be alive with a physical body or without.

I love proving by the scriptures that we live on after the death of the body. I hope it gives much knowledge and comfort to others.
Jesus even tells us in John 12:26 that we who serve him must follow him, and that he is going to the Father in heaven, where we follow him!
John 12:26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

This is in the passage where Jesus predicts his death. Jesus is going back to the Father.
John 12:26”Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me."
John 14:1-6. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Again, Jesus is talking about going back to heaven to his Father. True believers follow Jesus to heaven.

I am confused whether the normal view of the Baptists is that our immortal soul or our immortal spirit goes to heaven when we die. Perhaps The Biblicist and Moriah may like to settle their different view elsewhere.

Both have quoted John 12:26 in support of their view and Moriah also links this with John 14:1.
John 12:26 (KJV): If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Could I simply answer that neither passage talks about the faithful going to heaven.
John 14:3 (KJV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
We can be with him spiritually now, and he with us if we conform to John 12:25-26, but physically we will be with Jesus when he comes again, not before. He was going firstly to be crucified and then resurrected to reconcile us, and he was then going to the Father. In all of this he was preparing a place in the spiritual temple or house for us, where there are many abiding places for those who trust in him and wait for his return from heaven. It is the same hope expressed often in the NT, two examples may be sufficient:
1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (KJV): 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
2 Timothy 4:7-8 (KJV): 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[savedbymercy]

The Physical Land aspect of the Abrahamic Covenant has been fulfilled already, scripture confirms it here Joshua 23:14

14And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

Josh 21:43-45

43And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Neh 9:8

8And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

So that aspect of the Promise has been performed and done with. The Antitype Fulfillment is yet to be fulfilled with the Glorification of the Church all of Abraham's Spiritual Seed. Gen 17:5-8

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

 

[Moriah]

Greetings again Moriah,
I decided to have another look at Hebrews 12:1. I found it interesting that the word “witness” appears in chapter 11. It is a little obscure in the KJV but clearer in ASV:
Hebrews 11:2 (KJV): For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Hebrews 11:4 (KJV): By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Hebrews 11:5 (KJV): By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 11:2 (ASV): For therein the elders had witness borne to them.
Hebrews 11:4 (ASV): By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he had witness borne to him that he was righteous, God bearing witness in respect of his gifts: and through it he being dead yet speaketh.
Hebrews 11:5 (ASV): By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God translated him: for he hath had witness borne to him that before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God:

Many commentators limit the use of the term witnesses to the usage in Hebrews 11, in that these faithful bore witness to faith, and as a result God also bore witness to them. A few also extend the figure that these faithful are also in a sense witnesses to the trials of the believer today.

I can accept this in a figurative sense only. If we imagine a stadium, and many have been in their racing event, having finished the course. They then in a sense take their seats in the stadium. These are set before us in Hebrews 11 as examples for us to follow. They are witnesses to the benefit of following a life of faith and endurance. The only interaction with us is they are examples to us when we consider their lives and their patience and endurance.

Then later, Jesus runs his race and completes the course, and he is set before us as the supreme example for us to follow.

Paul also speaks in these terms:
2 Timothy 4:6-8 (KJV): 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Again Paul is set before us as an example to follow. His hope was not to go to heaven, but to await the appearing of the Lord. I hope the above clarifies my understanding of Hebrews 12:1. None of the commentators that I considered support your view.

Kind regards
Trevor

Do you really think that it matters if no commentators you read and believe teach what I say? Do you really think that that gives them any merit to prove me wrong, just because they are commentators whom you believe?

Check the scriptures to see for yourself if what people teach you is in the scriptures. I am speaking only about what the scriptures say.

You have NOT proven anything against what I have been saying about Hebrews 12. Witnesses are alive! The witnesses spoken of are the spirits of those who died, they are in heaven witnessing Paul and the other Apostles speak the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 12:23
to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,

When anyone comes to God through Jesus, they come to heaven, they come to heaven where thousands upon thousands of angels are, AND WHERE THE SPIRITS of righteous men made perfect are!

In Hebrews 12:23, Paul speaks about faith in Jesus making the spirits of righteous men perfect, the righteous men and prophets of the Old Testament. Faith in Jesus makes these spirits perfect. Jesus had not yet come to earth and die for us, these people who waited for the Messiah were already dead, they waited for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, they waited and were witnesses to the revealing, even though they were now dead, but they were alive in the spirit, their spirits in heaven. THESE OLD TESTAMENT FAITHFUL WERE DEAD BEFORE JESUS CAME TO EARTH. SO HOW DOES IT NOT PROVE TO YOU THAT WE HAVE SPIRITS WHO GO TO HEAVEN AND ARE CONSCIOUS?
If our spirits cease to exist, or are conscious of nothing, then how can spirits be made perfect by their faith in Jesus Christ? Also note where this scripture says the spirits of the righteous men made perfect are...in heaven.

 

[Moriah]

I would like to respond to a few of the verses raised throughout this thread. Perhaps to close comments on Hebrews 12:1, as stated in the last post, there is a link between the usage of the word witness in Hebrews 11:2,4,5 with Hebrews 12:1. This is reinforced and summarised in Hebrews 11:39 where the same word witness is set directly against Hebrews 12:1. Removing the chapter division clarifies that the word “wherefore” or “therefore” directly connects 11:39-12:1. Again the connection between the usage of “witness” is a little obscure in the KJV but clearer in ASV: Hebrews 11:39-12:1 (KJV): 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Hebrews 11:39-12:1 (ASV): 39And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith, received not the promise, 40God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
1 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Stop trying to take a word from the Bible and force the scriptures where you find that one word. THE MESSIAH IS THE PROMISE. The Old Testament faithful WAITED for the Messiah, but they died BEFORE Jesus came. HOWEVER, they were alive in heaven witnessing the gospel being proclaimed for the first time by Paul and the Apostles. FAITH IN JESUS MADE THOSE SPIRITS IN HEAVEN PERFECT, JUST LIKE TRUE BELIEVERS ON EARTH ARE MADE PERFECT WHEN WE BELIEVE IN JESUS.

I am confused whether the normal view of the Baptists is that our immortal soul or our immortal spirit goes to heaven when we die. Perhaps The Biblicist and Moriah may like to settle their different view elsewhere.

I have no idea what you are talking about concerning the Biblicist. I am not discussing with the Biblicist, I am discussing with you, and so you know, I am not a Baptist. I am not sure what the whole beliefs of Baptists are. I am no denomination, nor am I non-denominational. I am a Christian, and I belong to the body of Christ.

John 12:26 (KJV): If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. Could I simply answer that neither passage talks about the faithful going to heaven.

You are simply wrong. John 12:26”Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me."
This is in the passage where Jesus predicts his death. Jesus is going back to the Father, his Father who is in heaven!

John 14:1-6. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Again, Jesus is talking about going back to heaven to his Father. We know the way to the Father in heaven, when we follow Jesus.

John 14:3 (KJV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
We can be with him spiritually now, and he with us if we conform to John 12:25-26, but physically we will be with Jesus when he comes again, not before.

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO BEGAN THIS WHOLE THREAD BY FALSELY CLAIMING WE DO NOT HAVE A SPIRIT THAT LIVES IN CONSCIOUSNESS AFTER WE DIE. I am with Jesus in spirit now, and I in my spirit will be with him conscientiously when I die, and I will be with Jesus on the new earth in my new physical body after the resurrection!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist,
I appreciate the responses by Moriah and savedbymercy, and I hope to be able to respond to these in a few days time. The following is a brief response to the other three quotations used by The Biblicist to support his view that man possesses an immortal soul.

The disciples in the time of Christ did not believe in an immortal soul going to heaven when they died, but believed in their resurrection at the return of Christ, to inherit the promises made to Abraham.

They most certainly did (believe in an immortal soul going to heaven when they died)! Jesus taught it very clearly (Jn. 11:26; Mt. 22:32; Lk 16:19-31; Lk 23:43; etc.).

John 11:26 was considered in the previous post. Looking at the second quotation:
Matthew 22:32 (KJV): I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Jesus was answering the Sadducees who did not believe in the resurrection. Jesus did not teach here the migration of immortal souls to heaven, but the resurrection of the body.
Matthew 22:28-33 (KJV):28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. 33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Those that somehow take this to teach an immortal soul ignore the context and place great emphasis on Jesus’ statement that “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living”. Jesus is saying that because God is the God of Abraham, and of the living, then of necessity in the future, God will raise Abraham from the dead.

There is a similar usage of the present to depict the future in the following:
Romans 4:17 (KJV): (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
My impression is that the Bible teaching of the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ has virtually been supplanted by the pagan belief of immortal souls. If a person is already in heaven enjoying all the blessings of paradise and the presence of God, why return him to the earth to be reunited with his body? Rather the Bible teaching is that paradise is the Garden of Eden restored in the kingdom when Jesus returns.

Looking at the third quotation, Luke 16:19-31, which is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The parable is based on two things, the beliefs of the Pharisees, and the event soon to occur, the resurrection of Lazarus. Jesus is not endorsing the Pharisees’ doctrine, but using it as a framework to highlight their failures and wrong attitude. The details of the parable do not correspond with modern teaching concerning immortal souls.

Looking at the fourth quotation often described as the thief on the cross. In order to appreciate both the question and the answer it is necessary to look at the previous verse:
Luke 23:42-43 (KJV): 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Another acceptable translation is:
Luke 23:43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.
Jesus will raise the believing thief when he returns to the earth to establish his kingdom. The thief did not have to wait until the kingdom to know that Jesus remembered him, but he was given the answer then and there, that he would be accepted when Jesus came to establish his kingdom.

The thief looked for the appearing of Jesus in his kingdom, not in going to heaven. It has been suggested that Paul alludes to this incident in the following:
2 Timothy 4:1,7-8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Both Paul and the thief were comforted in the assurance of receiving the blessings of acceptance because they both loved his appearing. They will inherit the promises to Abraham.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again savedbymercy,

that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you[/b], and not one thing hath failed thereof.
[Also quoted were Josh 21:43-45 and Neh 9:8 with similar message]
So that aspect of the Promise has been performed and done with. The Antitype Fulfillment is yet to be fulfilled with the Glorification of the Church all of Abraham's Spiritual Seed. Gen 17:5-8
5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Israel received the land in Joshua’s time, but in Genesis 13:14-15 the land is promised to Abraham and Christ for ever. Even the portion of Genesis 17:8 that you underlined reinforces the unfulfilled land promise to Abraham. Abraham was personally promised the land but has not yet received it:
Hebrews 11:8 (KJV): By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Hebrews 11:13 (KJV): These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

The full realisation of the promised rest, which includes the land of inheritance, was unfulfilled in Joshua’s day. The rest that he gave the nation was only partial and temporary, despite the use of the word “all”. For example, Jerusalem was only conquered in the time of David.
Hebrews 4:8-9 (KJV): 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Looking at Psalm 72, the details of this have not yet been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled when Christ returns to set up his kingdom upon the earth. In other words, when the land promise to Abraham is fulfilled. A sample:
Psalm 72:1-3,8 (KJV): 1 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king’s son. 2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment. 3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness. 8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Moriah,

Do you really think that it matters if no commentators you read and believe teach what I say? Do you really think that that gives them any merit to prove me wrong, just because they are commentators whom you believe?
Check the scriptures to see for yourself if what people teach you is in the scriptures. I am speaking only about what the scriptures say.

I was interested in what various commentators had to say concerning Hebrews 12:1. These were not commentators that I would necessarily accept or normally use, because they believe in either immortal souls or spirits going to heaven when the person died. But even with such a belief, they did not interpret Hebrews 12:1 in the way that you did. I do not accept what anyone says, but I do consider and respect some aspects of their scholarship. I see the need to come to a final conclusion by prayer and meditation of the Word of God, and to be ready to be fiercely independent of any opinion of man, no matter how well he is respected by all.

You have NOT proven anything against what I have been saying about Hebrews 12. Witnesses are alive! The witnesses spoken of are the spirits of those who died, they are in heaven witnessing Paul and the other Apostles speak the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Before looking at these commentators, on Sunday I asked four of my brethren their view of Hebrews 12:1 and more or less they agreed with me. One of these has done a Bible Class series on Hebrews over a number of years. He also pointed out that the word witness is the Greek word where we get the English word martyr, and although this is not the specific meaning here, it gives the sense. If we say we are surrounded by martyrs, then it has the sense of what they have done and testified to in the past. It is interesting that the same word is translated as martyr in the following:
Revelation 2:13 (KJV): I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

When anyone comes to God through Jesus, they come to heaven, they come to heaven where thousands upon thousands of angels are, AND WHERE THE SPIRITS of righteous men made perfect are!

There is no mention that the righteous men go to heaven in Hebrews 12:22-23.

Stop trying to take a word from the Bible and force the scriptures where you find that one word. THE MESSIAH IS THE PROMISE. The Old Testament faithful WAITED for the Messiah, but they died BEFORE Jesus came. HOWEVER, they were alive in heaven witnessing the gospel being proclaimed for the first time by Paul and the Apostles. FAITH IN JESUS MADE THOSE SPIRITS IN HEAVEN PERFECT, JUST LIKE TRUE BELIEVERS ON EARTH ARE MADE PERFECT WHEN WE BELIEVE IN JESUS.

If Abraham went to heaven when he died, why does the Apostle Peter say that David has not ascended to heaven. Surely this would be an opportune moment to introduce this teaching. He could say that David was waiting in heaven for Jesus to arrive after his resurrection :
Acts 2:29-36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

I have nothing more to add regarding your comments on John 12:26 and John 14:1. Please note however that the term Father’s house is not talking about heaven, and the KJV term “mansions” could be confusing. The Father’s house is a theme that runs through scripture, speaking of the tabernacle and the temple, and then of the faithful who will make up the spiritual house of God. Two examples may help:

John 2:15-22 (KJV): 15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables; 16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise. 17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. 18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Hebrews 3:1-6 (KJV): 1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[savedbymercy]

trevor

Even the portion of Genesis 17:8 that you underlined reinforces the unfulfilled land promise to Abraham.

Thats Spiritual and includes Abraham's Seed in all nations, for that Promise in Gen 17:8 came in the context of God declaring Abraham the Father of many Nations Gen 17:5

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Thats who the seed is in Gen 17:8

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

The Physical land promise to Abraham has been fulfilled, I gave you scripture !

Also, Abraham's physcal descendants, are not even the Children of God, so they have no promises from Him anyway. Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Moriah]

I was interested in what various commentators had to say concerning Hebrews 12:1. These were not commentators that I would necessarily accept or normally use, because they believe in either immortal souls or spirits going to heaven when the person died. But even with such a belief, they did not interpret Hebrews 12:1 in the way that you did. I do not accept what anyone says, but I do consider and respect some aspects of their scholarship. I see the need to come to a final conclusion by prayer and meditation of the Word of God, and to be ready to be fiercely independent of any opinion of man, no matter how well he is respected by all.

Again, just because you say you could find no other commentator who explains Hebrews 12:1 the way I do does not mean a thing against me in this discussion, so why bring it up.

Before looking at these commentators, on Sunday I asked four of my brethren their view of Hebrews 12:1 and more or less they agreed with me.

It does not matter that you got someone to tell you what your itching ears wanted to hear, so why bring it up.

One of these has done a Bible Class series on Hebrews over a number of years.

It does not matter what man taught your friend in what class, so why bring it up.

He also pointed out that the word witness is the Greek word where we get the English word martyr, and although this is not the specific meaning here, it gives the sense. If we say we are surrounded by martyrs, then it has the sense of what they have done and testified to in the past. It is interesting that the same word is translated as martyr in the following:

The Bible versions you use are already In English. It does not matter how much Greek you study, it will not help you in the truth, so why bring it up. In addition, you cannot just change the word witness to martyr, nevertheless, it does not change what I am explaining.

Revelation 2:13 (KJV): I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Why would you try to use Revelation 2:13 to disprove what I say? You keep trying to disprove what I say by getting a word that is in two scriptures, then you try to force the one scripture’s use of the word to disprove the other scripture’s use of the word. That is ridiculous reasoning.

There is no mention that the righteous men go to heaven in Hebrews 12:22-23.

You are wrong. Hebrews 12:22-23 plainly tells us that the spirits of the righteous go to heaven. When we come to God through Jesus, we have come to the heavenly city of God. We have come to where the angels are, and to the church. We come to God, and to the spirits of righteous men who are made perfect by faith in Jesus Christ. If you do not see that, you are blind. If you continue to speak against it, then you speak against the Word of God. If you continue to teach against it, then you are leading others astray and into lies and confusion.
Hebrews 12:22-23 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,

If Abraham went to heaven when he died, why does the Apostle Peter say that David has not ascended to heaven. Surely this would be an opportune moment to introduce this teaching. He could say that David was waiting in heaven for Jesus to arrive after his resurrection : Acts 2:29-36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

David did not go to heaven in a resurrected body, that is what Peter is explaining. You are comparing Jesus being resurrected with a body and then going to heaven to that of spirits of men going to heaven without a body, and you do not see the difference.

I have nothing more to add regarding your comments on John 12:26 and John 14:1. Please note however that the term Father’s house is not talking about heaven, and the KJV term “mansions” could be confusing. The Father’s house is a theme that runs through scripture, speaking of the tabernacle and the temple, and then of the faithful who will make up the spiritual house of God. Two examples may help:

Again, you try to force the scriptures to say what you want by using a word you find in another scripture. You have not given any thing to disprove what I have said.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Moriah,

Again, just because you say you could find no other commentator who explains Hebrews 12:1 the way I do does not mean a thing against me in this discussion, so why bring it up.
It does not matter that you got someone to tell you what your itching ears wanted to hear, so why bring it up.
It does not matter what man taught your friend in what class, so why bring it up.
The Bible versions you use are already In English. It does not matter how much Greek you study, it will not help you in the truth, so why bring it up. In addition, you cannot just change the word witness to martyr, nevertheless, it does not change what I am explaining.
Why would you try to use Revelation 2:13 to disprove what I say? You keep trying to disprove what I say by getting a word that is in two scriptures, then you try to force the one scripture’s use of the word to disprove the other scripture’s use of the word. That is ridiculous reasoning.

I mentioned all of the above in the hope that you would see some of the reasons why I cannot accept your view. I am reasonably content with my poor attempt at explanation of Hebrews 12:1. I am also happy with the view presented by the commentators and the view also agreed to with my brethren. In other words from my standpoint it is as if 10-20 other people have contributed to this discussion on Hebrews 12:1 and I have decided to agree with all of these except your very obscure position. But my main reason why I cannot accept your view though is because I believe that after death we are unconscious, waiting for the resurrection.

David did not go to heaven in a resurrected body, that is what Peter is explaining. You are comparing Jesus being resurrected with a body and then going to heaven to that of spirits of men going to heaven without a body, and you do not see the difference.

Peter did not say here that David’s spirit is in heaven, but that David was both dead and buried. He is waiting to be resurrected at the return of Jesus from heaven.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Moriah]

Greetings again Moriah,

I mentioned all of the above in the hope that you would see some of the reasons why I cannot accept your view. I am reasonably content with my poor attempt at explanation of Hebrews 12:1. I am also happy with the view presented by the commentators and the view also agreed to with my brethren.

I gave you perfect proof without a doubt that we go to heaven after the death of our bodies, yet you reject these scriptures. I cannot stay much longer with a group of people who can just carry on as if I have not spoke of the powerful, beautiful Truth. I will not stay in this group much longer it is pointless. No one here is thankful for anything that I say.

In other words from my standpoint it is as if 10-20 other people have contributed to this discussion on Hebrews 12:1 and I have decided to agree with all of these except your very obscure position. But my main reason why I cannot accept your view though is because I believe that after death we are unconscious, waiting for the resurrection.

Many are called, few are chosen. Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Peter did not say here that David’s spirit is in heaven, but that David was both dead and buried. He is waiting to be resurrected at the return of Jesus from heaven.

Peter said David's body was dead and buried, not his spirit.

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings again The Biblicist,


John 11:26 was considered in the previous post.

Sorry, but I must have missed your comments on John 11:26.

Looking at the second quotation:
Matthew 22:32 (KJV): I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Jesus was answering the Sadducees who did not believe in the resurrection. Jesus did not teach here the migration of immortal souls to heaven, but the resurrection of the body.

They did not believe in the resurrection because they did not believe that any aspect remained after physical death. This is clearly stated by Luke:

Ac 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.


Please take note of Luke's comment in the word "both". They denied the resurrection because they denied there was any duration of the soul (angel, nor spirit).

Josepheus the Jewish historian who lived when Luke wrote confirms this as well but in more precise language as he explicitly states the Sadducees denied the "immortality of the soul."

"But the Sadducees....take away the belief of the immortal duration of the soul, and the punishments and rewards in Hades" - Jospephus, Wars of the Jews, Book II chapter 8 paragraph 14.

However, He clearly states that the Pharisees believed in both.

In Acts 23 Paul takes sides against the Sadducees with the Pharisees just as Jesus took sides with the Pharisees against the Sadducees in Matthew 22.

Although Jesus in Matthew 22 confirms the resurrection it is not the resurrection he is confirming in Matthew 22:23 but rather he is directly addressing their denial of the duration of the soul beyond physical death. In using the present tense "I am" he declares that He is not the God of the dead but of the living, He is rebuking the Sadducees for their denial of the immaterial existence of the soul.

Denial of the resurrection by the Sadducees was denial of the immortal duration of the soul because if the soul was destroyed at physical death there could be no resurrection of the body.

Your interpretation is wrong and Jospehus proves this as well as Luke's comment in addition to the present tense declaration that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are stilll "living" as God is not the God of the dead and what was "dead" were their bodies still in the graves.

Josepheus was a Jew who lived when Luke lived and plainly and clearly tells his readers the differnence between the Pharisees and Sadducees in regard to the immort duration of the soul as well as eternal punishment in hades. He explicitly states the Pharisees believed both but the Sadducees did not. Jesus and Paul took the side of the Pharisees against the Sadducees and therefore Jesus and Luke take sides against you.

I will handle your other objections in another post.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again savedbymercy,

Thats Spiritual and includes Abraham's Seed in all nations, for that Promise in Gen 17:8 came in the context of God declaring Abraham the Father of many Nations Gen 17:5
5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Yes, this is the same as Galatians 3.

Thats who the seed is in Gen 17:8
8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
The Physical land promise to Abraham has been fulfilled, I gave you scripture !

I disagree that the land promise has been fulfilled, perhaps the next post will also help.

Also, Abraham's physcal descendants, are not even the Children of God, so they have no promises from Him anyway. Rom 9:8
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

But there are many scriptures that teach that many of the physical seed, those of natural Israel, will be converted at the return of Christ and become the first dominion of the Kingdom of God Micah 4:1-8. In other words they will be grafted back into their own olive tree Romans 11.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

The land promise to Abraham and his seed for ever, which is expounded by Paul in Galatains 3 to be still in the future and is to be inherited by Abraham and Christ and all those who believe into Christ and these promises. This land promise is expanded in detail in the time of David, and Psalm 8 is one example of the teaching of David and the Psalms.
Psalm 8 (KJV): A Psalm of David.
1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
To the chief Musician upon Muthlabben,

I have moved the subscription of the Psalm as suggested by Thirtle and endorsed by the Companion Bible as this particular subscription appears to fit the Psalm, which commemorates David’s victory over Goliath and the lessons to be drawn concerning from this. The Psalm speaks of the excellency of God’s Name where Yahweh, God the Father is revealed as Lord of creation in all its beauty and wonder. But the Psalm using the terms of Genesis 1-3 looks forward to the new creation in a Son of Adam, made a little lower than God and the angels, who will be triumphant over the causes and effects of sin introduced in Eden. The end result will be that God the Father will give this Son of Man authority and lordship over the creation.

Paul expounds the end result of this process where he quotes Psalm 8:
1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV): 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Psalm 8 appears to be written at the beginning of David’s life shortly after his anointing. Psalm 72 on the other hand appears to be written at the end of his life. Although there was a partial fulfilment of Psalm 72 in the reign of Solomon, the full details of this have not yet been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled when Christ returns to set up his kingdom upon the earth. In other words, when the land promise to Abraham is fulfilled.
Psalm 72:1-3,8 (KJV): 1 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king’s son. 2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment. 3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness. 8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

The hope of the OT and NT believers was not going to heaven at death, but awaiting the return of Christ from heaven, to raise the dead who are sleeping in the dust of the earth, and to establish his kingdom upon the earth.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Moriah,

I appreciate the responses. I will consider the reply of The Biblicist in a day or two.

I gave you perfect proof without a doubt that we go to heaven after the death of our bodies, yet you reject these scriptures. I cannot stay much longer with a group of people who can just carry on as if I have not spoke of the powerful, beautiful Truth. I will not stay in this group much longer it is pointless. No one here is thankful for anything that I say. Many are called, few are chosen. Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Don’t leave because of me. Very few amongst the Baptists would agree with the land promise. They set their hearts on going to heaven. Yes I agree that very few seek the truth and the narrow way.

Peter said David's body was dead and buried, not his spirit.

No it does not. It says that David is both dead and buried. And this agrees with Daniel 12:2 amd many other Scriptures that we are not conscious in death.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Moriah]

Greetings again Moriah,

Don’t leave because of me. Very few amongst the Baptists would agree with the land promise. They set their hearts on going to heaven. Yes I agree that very few seek the truth and the narrow way.

No it does not. It says that David is both dead and buried. And this agrees with Daniel 12:2 amd many other Scriptures that we are not conscious in death.

Kind regards
Trevor

When I do leave, it will be because of you and others like you.

As for Christians having their hearts set on going to heaven, I already told you that my heart is already in heaven.

The scriptures do not say David’s spirit is dead and buried. The scripture is about his physical body. Can you not even reason with this truth? Physical bodies die and are buried, spirits do not die spirits are not buried.

I gave you scriptures explaining that we do have spirits with consciousness. If you would like to move on to more scriptures about this, than we can do that. However, if you are set on denying the truth, then nothing I say will make a difference to you, then maybe we should just end this conversation. Do you still want to debate this topic, even though you will not ever take away my knowledge and life in the spirit by the Lord?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

They did not believe in the resurrection because they did not believe that any aspect remained after physical death. This is clearly stated by Luke:
Ac 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
Please take note of Luke's comment in the word "both". They denied the resurrection because they denied there was any duration of the soul (angel, nor spirit).

You emphasise the word “both”, but I notice that in other translations there is an allowance for three items, resurrection, angel and spirit:
Acts 23:8 (RSV): For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit; but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.
Acts 23:8 (NIV): (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.)
Acts 23:8 (NASB95): For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.
So I suggest that they are three separate things that the Sadducees did not believe in, while the Pharisees believed in all three.

I am not sure if you are interpreting or connecting the word “angel” with the “duration of the soul”. The Pharisees in the immediate context seem to take the word angel in the normal sense of the word, and not describing the immortal soul of those that were dead.
Acts 23:9 (KJV): And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees’ part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.
The angels were God’s messengers or representatives, existing before the creation of man, speaking and acting on behalf of God. Hence “if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God. They are not the immortal souls of the faithful.

The faithful will only be on an equality with the angels after the resurrection, not because they have an immortal soul that lives after death.
Luke 20:34-36 (KJV): 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Note that the above is the parallel reference to the record of Jesus with the Sadducees, and hence this shows that Jesus does not seem to agree with your view that Paul and Jesus were teaching the immortal soul.

God does need our minds and thoughts in the form of an immortal soul in order to resurrect us after death, because there is no limit to his understanding and knowledge and there is no limit to his power. When a person has a stroke, or loss of oxygen to the brain for more than five minutes, if the immortal soul is the seat of continuity, why is there a loss of memory and function? Surely the brain is the seat of thought and when the brain dies the thoughts die with the brain.

Josepheus the Jewish historian who lived when Luke wrote confirms this as well but in more precise language as he explicitly states the Sadducees denied the "immortality of the soul."
"But the Sadducees....take away the belief of the immortal duration of the soul, and the punishments and rewards in Hades" - Jospephus, Wars of the Jews, Book II chapter 8 paragraph 14.
However, He clearly states that the Pharisees believed in both.

Did Paul endorse every aspect of the teaching of the Pharisees on this subject? Did he believe in the “immortal duration of the soul in Hades”? Is this your belief as well? Is the Biblical teaching concerning Hades equivalent to today’s estimate of Hell, Heaven, the grave or some other intermediate state?

In Acts 23 Paul takes sides against the Sadducees with the Pharisees just as Jesus took sides with the Pharisees against the Sadducees in Matthew 22.
Although Jesus in Matthew 22 confirms the resurrection it is not the resurrection he is confirming in Matthew 22:23 but rather he is directly addressing their denial of the duration of the soul beyond physical death. In using the present tense "I am" he declares that He is not the God of the dead but of the living, He is rebuking the Sadducees for their denial of the immaterial existence of the soul.
Denial of the resurrection by the Sadducees was denial of the immortal duration of the soul because if the soul was destroyed at physical death there could be no resurrection of the body.

I do not agree that Jesus is taking sides with the Pharisees, but is directly answering the Sadducees. He is discussing the resurrection of the dead, not immortal souls. You have altered the subject of the resurrection to the concept of immortal souls. The solution to Jesus’ statement can be found in Paul’s comments in the following:
Matthew 22:30-32 (KJV): 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Romans 4:17 (KJV): (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
The fact that God is the God of Abraham necessitates the resurrection of Abraham, even though now he is sleeping in the dust of the earth, awaiting the resurrection at the return of Jesus.

Another reason why Jesus may have used these terms, is that the Sadducees believed that God was concerned only with the here and now, with those that were now alive, and that we should live life now in that context. The Sadducees may have had the following motto “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living”. Jesus could have taken up this motto, and turned their own words against them by firstly quoting God’s words to Moses in Exodus “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”.

Jesus and Paul took the side of the Pharisees against the Sadducees and therefore Jesus and Luke take sides against you.

I do not agree that Paul and Jesus believed in the existence of immortal souls in Hades. Is the Biblical Hades equivalent to today’s estimate of Hell, Heaven, the grave or some other intermediate state?

The Scriptural definition of a soul is given in:
Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Man is formed out of dust and together with the breath of life he became a living soul. When he sinned he was sentenced to perish, to return to the dust.
Genesis 3:19 (KJV): In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The resurrection will consist of raising the soulical body from the grave and changing it to a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:42-46 (KJV): 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The sentence of death was reversed in Jesus because of his fellowship with His Father, and because he had done no sin.
Acts 2:24-28 (KJV): 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

You emphasise the word “both”, but I notice that in other translations there is an allowance for three items, resurrection, angel and spirit:
Acts 23:8 (RSV): For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit; but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.
Acts 23:8 (NIV): (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.)
Acts 23:8 (NASB95): For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.
So I suggest that they are three separate things that the Sadducees did not believe in, while the Pharisees believed in all three.

You are trying to complicate something that is very simple. The resurrection has to do with the physical body. The terms "angel" and "spirit" have to do with existence apart from a physical body. That is precisely the TWO things the Sadducees are denying according to Josephus and that is precisely why Luke said "both" and not three things. First, they denied a PHYSICAL resurrection of the body. Second, they denied any SPIRIT existing apart from a physical body, whether angel or human spirit.

Luke 20:34-36 (KJV): 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Note that the above is the parallel reference to the record of Jesus with the Sadducees, and hence this shows that Jesus does not seem to agree with your view that Paul and Jesus were teaching the immortal soul.

Because you are omitting part of the conversation! You are only quoting the part where Christ dealt with the PHYSICAL or MATERIAL body or the resurrection.

You are purposely omitting the text where Jesus deals with the very reason they deny the PHYSICAL resurrection and that is because they deny spirit existence outside of the body whether angel or human spirit.

Jesus deals with the PRESENT EXISTENCE of humans apart from their bodies when he said "I AM the God of the LIVING not of the dead."

If your interpretation were followed Christ would be making an oxymoronic statement that he is no longer the God of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob because they are dead, since He is not the God of the dead. So your interpretation is wrong and Jesus is agreeing with Luke and Paul in Acts 23.

 

[Moriah]

Both have quoted John 12:26 in support of their view and Moriah also links this with John 14:1.
John 12:26 (KJV): If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Could I simply answer that neither passage talks about the faithful going to heaven.
John 14:3 (KJV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
We can be with him spiritually now, and he with us if we conform to John 12:25-26, but physically we will be with Jesus when he comes again, not before. He was going firstly to be crucified and then resurrected to reconcile us, and he was then going to the Father. In all of this he was preparing a place in the spiritual temple or house for us, where there are many abiding places for those who trust in him and wait for his return from heaven.

Jesus says that he is going to prepare a place for his disciples and that he will come back and take them to be with him.

We see in Acts that Jesus came for Stephen. See Acts 7:55 But Stephen full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.

We see that Jesus came back for Stephen. In addition, we see in 2 Timothy 4:18 that Paul is confident that Jesus will come back to get him and bring him safely to Jesus' heavenly kingdom when it is Paul’s time to die. See the following...

2 Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Moriah]

John 8:48-59

The Claims of Jesus About Himself

48The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"
49"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

52At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. 53Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"

54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!” 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Give up your doctrine of death.