Tithing and Giving

[freeatlast]

But the church already existed, and it was listening to him speak to the Pharisees. So, I ask again, did Jesus tell his disciples privately to ignore what he told the Pharisees, since they were under the law and his followers weren't?

No the church was not already. The Lord was speaking to those under the law, not the church. However for the sake of argument let's say you are correct, even though you are not. It still would make no difference since we have how the church is to give in later books of the bible.

 

[DaChaser1]

No the church was not already. The Lord was speaking to those under the law, not the church. However for the sake of argument let's say you are correct, even though you are not. It still would make no difference since we have how the church is to give in later books of the bible.

is it a sin to obey God?

IF one holds that the principle of tithing predates the law given to isreal, hint it does! see Abraham tithing what he had been blessed by God with to Melchizedek !

Since it predates the law of Moses, and was given to men by God to follow...

Doesn't kind of undercut your basic premise?

 

[saturneptune]

No the church was not already. The Lord was speaking to those under the law, not the church. However for the sake of argument let's say you are correct, even though you are not. It still would make no difference since we have how the church is to give in later books of the bible.

How do you know the church did not exist? It might be your opinion that the church did not exist until Pentecost, but that is like everything else, your opinion. A case could be made just as good that the church existed during Christ's ministry on earth. In Matthew, the method of church discipline is addressed. All the functions of a local church existed in Christ's ministry, that is, offerings, helping the poor, spreading the Gospel, Baptism, the Lord's Supper, sermons, praising the Lord, etc, etc.

 

[freeatlast]

But the church already existed, and it was listening to him speak to the Pharisees. So, I ask again, did Jesus tell his disciples privately to ignore what he told the Pharisees, since they were under the law and his followers weren't?

No. There was no reason to tell the disciple anything. He was speaking to OT saints. The Lord revealed to us all including the disciples and apostles later on how he wanted the church to give and we have that in Cor.

 

[freeatlast]

is it a sin to obey God?

IF one holds that the principle of tithing predates the law given to isreal, hint it does! see Abraham tithing what he had been blessed by God with to Melchizedek !

Since it predates the law of Moses, and was given to men by God to follow...

Doesn't kind of undercut your basic premise?

It is sin to decide HOW to obey Him instead of following what He says as you do.

 

[freeatlast]

How do you know the church did not exist? It might be your opinion that the church did not exist until Pentecost, but that is like everything else, your opinion. A case could be made just as good that the church existed during Christ's ministry on earth. In Matthew, the method of church discipline is addressed. All the functions of a local church existed in Christ's ministry, that is, offerings, helping the poor, spreading the Gospel, Baptism, the Lord's Supper, sermons, praising the Lord, etc, etc.

For the sake of argument I give and will say the church was already alive, even though I believe it was not. That has nothing to do with this. The latest word from God is what matters and the Cor. Letter comes after the time of the gospel teachings of the Lord so the Cor letter on how the church is to give, not what was being said to those under the law. Those under the law tithed and the church gives from the heart with no suggesting of the tithe.

 

[DaChaser1]

For the sake of argument I give and will say the church was already alive, even though I believe it was not. That has nothing to do with this. The latest word from God is what matters and the Cor. Letter comes after the time of the gospel teachings of the Lord so the Cor letter on how the church is to give, not what was being said to those under the law. Those under the law tithed and the church gives from the heart with no suggesting of the tithe.

I believe that there is progressive revelation in the Bible, but ALL of it is inspired as being the revelation of God!

the "final word" would be what jesus Himself said, or do you hold that His Apostles words trump his own?

Tithing existed before the Law was given to Moses....

Why wouldn't we practice that as being a 'timeless principle?"

 

[gb93433]

Tithing existed before the Law was given to Moses....

Why wouldn't we practice that as being a 'timeless principle?"

The same question could be asked about the dietary laws.

 

[Crabtownboy]

The same question could be asked about the dietary laws.

However, we have Peter's dream which negated the dietary laws. We have nothing negating the tithe.

 

[DaChaser1]

However, we have Peter's dream which negated the dietary laws. We have nothing negating the tithe.

correct!

peter received progressive revelation that superceded that of under the law in old Covenant for isreal, but NOTHING was given to update/alter/change the principle of the Tithe!

 

[Oldtimer]

OK, folks. If I've read this thread correctly, some view that I'm committing a sin for our manner of making offerings to the church. Is that the case?

Our church does not pressure anyone to give a tithe. When mentioned, it goes something like this. "Give only as you are led to do so by the Holy Spirit."

We chose to use the OT 10% tithe as our baseline for monetary offerings. Since we live on a fixed income that's a check on the gross once a month. Plus, any withdrawals from our retirement accounts. Additionally, we also give at every service where the offering plate is passed. No record of this is kept for tax purposes, BTW.

We also donate supplies to the church for various purposes. Sometimes the amount is recorded as a contribution. Often, it isn't.

And, we give our time, a considerable amount, for various ministries.

When I do our tax reporting for 2011, I'll have the final figure of percent of gross income compared to our "reported" amount of giving from the church. Right now, I'm estimating that it's between 15% & 20%.

Because I use the term "tithe" doesn't mean that we are following a commandment from the OT as if it were a "requirement". It's a base line that we chose. As you can see we exceed it quite a bit. We give this amount because we want to give it for the glory of the Lord. Not because we HAVE to give it.

Which one of the bold items below applies to us?

Freeatlast wrote:
No, here is what the scripture says;
KJV2Cor 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

ESV
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. It has nothing to do with how much we have. It has to do only what the heart will allow cheerfully. The intent is to reveal our hearts to ourselves. There is no amount or percent involved. Any person who follows the tithe or uses it for a model is in sin and any teacher or Pastor who teaches the tithe or to base our giving on the tithe is in sin teaching legalism because they are not following how the Lord commands us to give. It is totally a personal issue with absolutely no suggestion or command and totally without any outside pressure. The only guideline is the heart not the size of our weekly check or bank account.

??

 

[freeatlast]

OK, folks. If I've read this thread correctly, some view that I'm committing a sin for our manner of making offerings to the church. Is that the case?

Our church does not pressure anyone to give a tithe. When mentioned, it goes something like this. "Give only as you are led to do so by the Holy Spirit."

We chose to use the OT 10% tithe as our baseline for monetary offerings. Since we live on a fixed income that's a check on the gross once a month. Plus, any withdrawals from our retirement accounts. Additionally, we also give at every service where the offering plate is passed. No record of this is kept for tax purposes, BTW.

We also donate supplies to the church for various purposes. Sometimes the amount is recorded as a contribution. Often, it isn't.

And, we give our time, a considerable amount, for various ministries.

When I do our tax reporting for 2011, I'll have the final figure of percent of gross income compared to our "reported" amount of giving from the church. Right now, I'm estimating that it's between 15% & 20%.

Because I use the term "tithe" doesn't mean that we are following a commandment from the OT as if it were a "requirement". It's a base line that we chose. As you can see we exceed it quite a bit. We give this amount because we want to give it for the glory of the Lord. Not because we HAVE to give it.

Which one of the bold items below applies to us?


??

Let me ask you a question. Let's say for a moment all you had was the NT from acts on and you had never heard of the tithe. All you knew about was the following verse. What would you base you giving on?
ESV
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. It has nothing to do with how much we have. It has to do only what the heart will allow cheerfully.

 

[freeatlast]

I believe that there is progressive revelation in the Bible, but ALL of it is inspired as being the revelation of God!

the "final word" would be what jesus Himself said, or do you hold that His Apostles words trump his own?

Tithing existed before the Law was given to Moses....

Why wouldn't we practice that as being a 'timeless principle?"

It is all His word. If you do not believe what the Apostles wrote is the Lord's words then you are in deep trouble because you could not believe that the bible is the word of God in such a case. The church is not under the tithe.

 

[freeatlast]

However, we have Peter's dream which negated the dietary laws. We have nothing negating the tithe.

It does not matter. We have scripture that tells us how to give and that scripture overrides the tithe.

 

[freeatlast]

correct!

peter received progressive revelation that superceded that of under the law in old Covenant for isreal, but NOTHING was given to update/alter/change the principle of the Tithe!

This overrdes the tithe;
2Cor 9:7 KJV
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

ESV
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver

 

[DaChaser1]

This overrdes the tithe;
2Cor 9:7 KJV
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

ESV
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver

actually, applies equally to the Tithe/offerings, as give it as unto the Lord!

 

[freeatlast]

actually, applies equally to the Tithe/offerings, as give it as unto the Lord!

You just can't believe what is written. You always add to the bible.

 

[DaChaser1]

You just can't believe what is written. You always add to the bible.

I read and interprete it in the Spirit of the Law, you in the letter of the Law!

 

[gb93433]

However, we have Peter's dream which negated the dietary laws. We have nothing negating the tithe.

That is unless you would consider Paul's teaching on giving.

 

[freeatlast]

actually, applies equally to the Tithe/offerings, as give it as unto the Lord!

Nope, what matters is word not your adding to it.