Featured Is Everything Predestined?

If you mean "free will" to say that we are free to make choices, then yes. Where I disagree is when people use free will to mean that we are free to make choices that are against our will.

 

Isnt every choice we make according to our own will?

John

 

You remember the song "Amazing Grace" .... thats my own personal belief brother....slice it & dice it any way you want. I can give you scripture till I am blue in the face, but to what purpose.... you will still reject it... maybe even till you die. But I am confident in my salvation & in my Savior.

Now I still backslide but Im getting better. But here is what we should be focusing on (IMHO) is to guard against the sin of unbelief. I will give you two striking examples.....when tempted by Potiphar's wife Joseph said "How then can I do this great wickedness and sin against God? what troubled Joseph was not the possibility of sinning against the woman but against God Himself. Now that is true spiritual thinking. We must not think so much about the sin itself. That is what we tend to do. What constituted sin for Joseph was the fact that it involved his relationship to God---"if I do that I WILL BE SINNING AGAINST GOD. David saw the same thing. Murderer & adulterer that he was, this is what troubled him: "Against You, You only have I sinned & done evil in Your sight"

My brothers & sisters..... let the contemplation of how we all sin against the Lord way heavy on us all to the point of changing our behavior....lets start working on our behavior to be closer to God & stop these ridiculous wars on petty differences in doctrine....its not furthering anyone.

Blessings to all

 

Excellent post. It is our relationship with God that determines our eternity, not our relationship with other people.

Our relationship with other people should reflect our relationship with God, but you are right, God comes first.

Good food for thought. Maybe my pastor will let me teach this in Sunday School

john

 

That song is my testimony as well. If I heard it every day until I die, it would only get sweeter. It never gets old to me.

The use of Joseph and Potiphar's wife is a good illistration. When we sin, we sin before an all wise, all holy, and all powerful God. Whenever I sin, I am grieved in my soul by the Spirit, and I repent and ask God for His forgiveness. He has never told me "no". :jesus: :godisgood:

You've went from butta to jelly. Still on a roll!! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

Anutter good post!! Everyone must have had a bowl of "nicey-o's" for supper this evening.

 

Man, I have never agreed with you so many times in one night...LOL

I reckon that a hard core hyper calvinist and a hard core arminian would butt heads till eternity.

But in reality, arent most of us just a little bit of both?

John

 

I agree with this, especially the last sentence.

I am sure we both have "loonies" in each camp, that carry our doctrine further than most of would even dare think about it.


Rob Bell would be our "looney", I guess.

 

Well, I am considered a loonie no matter where i camp!!!:laugh::laugh:

John

 

Oh Fiddlesticks...... Rofl :laugh: look closer :laugh:

 

Is he talking about me?

 

Yeah. If I look in the mirror, I may find the biggest "looney" in our camp. But I do ask God to impart me with His knowledge, and not my own. I ask Him all the time, if I have something wrong, please show me. I do not want to proclaim anything that doesn't align itself with scripture.

 

Nah....it was me, I reckon....:laugh:

 

Well, I was always told that the Christian life was a journey, not a destination.

Heaven is the destination....life is just a journey.

Man, I am getting wise in my old age....i remember when old people used to tell me the same thing.

john

 

http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/ftpredest.htm

http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?1167

http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?1420




http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/bbwpredest.htm

The Importance Of Predestination


In an age when the fear of man threatens to 'dumb down' our testimony to God's truth, it is well worth while to remind ourselves that the foundation doctrine of predestination is to be publicly preached, whether men hear or forbear. On this point let us heed the Word of God and the witness of some of His choicest servants.

1. God forbids us to tamper with His revealed will in the slightest way. "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it." (Deut 4.2) "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life." (Rev 22.18-19) As the doctrine of predestination forms part of His revealed will, it is included in this prohibition. Comments Zanchius:
"An ambassador is to deliver the whole message with which he is charged. He is to omit no part of it, but must declare the mind of the sovereign he represents, fully and without reserve. . . Let the minister of Christ weigh this well."

2. The Lord Jesus Christ and His apostles all preached predestination, declaring to their hearers "all the counsel of God." (Luke 4.25-29; Acts 20.27; Rom 9-11; Eph 1; James 4; 1 Pet 1.18-21; Jude 4; 2 John 1-3.) "What shall we then do?" asks William Plumer. "If the doctrine so offends men, shall we give it up? Are we to make peace with human wickedness by observing a profound silence on this topic? Nay, let us rather imitate Christ, who often preached it."

3. Faithful men in the past all refused to suppress this doctrine, however unpalatable it is to the carnal mind. In his day, Augustine rebuked those who passed over the doctrine of predestination in silence; and when he was charged with preaching it too freely, he replied by saying that where Scripture leads, there we must follow, adding: "Both the grace of free election and predestination and also wholesome admonitions and doctrines are to be preached." Writes Luther: "In chapters nine, ten and eleven [of Romans] the apostle teaches about the eternal predestination of God. He tells how it originally comes about that a person will believe or not, will become rid of his sins or not. He does so in order that our becoming pious be taken entirely out of our own hands and placed into the hands of God. And indeed it is supremely necessary that this be done; for . . . if the matter depended on us, surely not a single person would be saved. Since, however. . . His predestination cannot fail and no one can defeat His purpose, our hope against sin remains."

Calvin says the same: those who try to overturn "that prime article of our faith . . . God's eternal predestination . . . demonstrate their malice no less than their ignorance." In view of his approaching death, he wrote: "I John Calvin, servant of the Word of God in the Church of Geneva . . . have no other hope or refuge than His predestination, on which my entire salvation is grounded."

4. All truth is interconnected; to preserve a full-orbed Biblical testimony, the doctrine of predestination is necessary. Comments Zanchius: "The whole circle of arts have a kind of mutual bond and connection, and by a sort of reciprocal relationship are held together and interwoven with each other. Much the same may be said of this important doctrine [predestination]; it is the bond which connects and keeps together the whole Christian system, which, without this, is like a system of sand, ever ready to fall to pieces. It is the cement which holds the fabric together; nay, it is the very soul which animates the whole frame. It is so blended and interwoven with the entire scheme of Gospel doctrine that when the former is excluded, the latter bleeds to death."

5. The truth of predestination should be preached for the comfort of believers. "The doctrine of sovereign Predestination . . . should be publicly taught and preached in order that true believers may know themselves to be special objects of God's love and mercy, and that they may be confirmed and strengthened in the assurance of their salvation . . . For the Christian this should be one of the most comforting doctrines in all the Scriptures." (Loraine Boettner) If we would be a means of comfort to the people of God, we must assure them, by showing them marks of God's grace, that He chose them in love before the foundation of the world, that Christ died for them in particular and that the Holy Spirit who regenerated them shall certainly convey them to heaven.

6. Lastly, this truth should be preached to encourage preachers themselves. Writes William Plumer: "That the doctrine of election is a ground of encouragement to pious preachers of the Gospel is certain. Thousands have told us so. It was so to Paul. 'Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace; for I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: FOR I HAVE MUCH PEOPLE IN THIS CITY.' (Acts 18.9-10) The previous context shows that the Jews at Corinth 'opposed themselves and blasphemed.' In fact the work of founding a church there was just begun. Yet God says: 'I have much people in this city.' No man will say that God merely designed to inform Paul that Corinth was populous. He knew this already. The only fair logical meaning is that among the crowds of the ungodly in that city were many of God's elect, whom He purposed by Paul's ministry soon to bring to a saving knowledge of Christ. The doctrine of election, rightly understood, holds out the only ground of encouragement which we have for preaching the blessed Gospel. If God has no elect, we preach in vain."

So then, this doctrine has been expressly revealed to us to be believed and preached. The excuse that people will reject it, or that it is unjust, or that it will cause controversy, is irrelevant. Since God has commanded us to preach it, we disobey Him at our peril. One thing is certain: it makes wholly for His glory, brings comfort and hope to His elect, and leaves unbelievers without excuse. In doing this, it perfectly fulfils the purpose for which He has revealed it.

[This editorial is found in Peace and Truth 20006:3 the magazine of the Sovereign Grace Union written by John Brentnall www.sgu.org.uk]






By Various

 

Yes it is. And our wills are in bondage to sin.

 

What if, as a sinner, we tell the truth? What if we see someone lose their wallet, and they didn't know it, and we give it back to them?

We were still a sinner, and these deeds won't save us. But, if we are in bondage to their sin, then we would have kept the wallet, or we would continually lie, and never tell the truth.

 

From the pages of The Sword and the Trowel:

"As for those who are for climbing up on high, you know them well. They are always posing themselves and others with questions which are hard to be understood, while the simple gospel they neglect. If they could understand the mystery of predestination, and untie the knotty points of man's free-will and God's fore-ordination, they dream that things then would go well with them, whereas there is no more connection between salvation and the understanding of the mystery of predestination than there is between cracking nuts and healing the sick. The two things are entirely distinct."

 

I cant for the life of me understand why predestination needs to be preached, much less where we are commanded to preach it.

If we are predestined, against our will, to go to heaven or hell, then how is man's preaching going to change that?

What is the point? I know God commands us to spread the gospel, but this command seems to me to be contrary to predestination.

If God has decided that this group goes to heaven, and this group goes to hell, before we were even born, then how is preaching or spreading the gospel going to change the will of God?

John

 

I don't agree with their interpretation of predestination, but the preaching of the Gospel, in their system, is God's way of saving those who He predestined to save. So, even in the predestination system, the preaching of the Gospel is VERY necessary to accomplish His will. In fact, both camps hold to the Gospel as God's way to save the lost.