Featured Is Everything Predestined?

Yes, but every choice is intentional (it has a why); otherwise, it is random (or made out of insanity). If there is a why to a choice, then that why CANNOT be the rationale for another choice. Such would violate the law of non-contradiction.

It is possible (and I say necessary) to believe that God has infallible, exhaustive knowledge of all future events and that man makes choices "freely" (without coercion--against his will). Even Arminians (or other synergists who believe in EDF) actually are compatibilists because they believe that all things are "determined" by what God knows, yet choices are not coerced (although they try to avoid admitting it).


Now, as far as the open theist contention that their position solves the problem of God being "complicit" in the evil actions of man, their solution is no solution at all. In fact, all it does is push the problem a bit. For example, an open theist would say that God cannot know that a specific murderer will fire a bullet at a victim in the future, because He would be complicit in the act. However, is God faster than a bullet? Can God see the trigger being pulled? Is it possible for Him to deflect or stop a bullet coming out of the barrel? If so, why didn't He prevent it from happening? Wouldn't that make Him complicit in the action because He could have prevented it but didn't? Simply removing a period of time from God's knowledge does not free Him from being "complicit" in the action one bit.

The open theist answer is that God is more concerned with the libertarian free will of man than He is that evil occurs. The "greater good" requires that God "risk" the "divine project." In other words, God cares more about the free will of the evil murder than He does about the violated free will of the victim. What about Hitler? Well, the open theist will argue that "God didn't know" that such tragic events would happen, and that He would be complict in the actions if He knew them ahead of time and did not prevent them. Well, God obviously observed Hitler's reign of terror for five years and was "complict" in the death of 6 million Jews and did "nothing" to stop it. The problem has not been solved! So, He was really hoping that Hitler would exercise his free will and repent. He sacrificed the lives of millions of other people (many of which also needed the same repentance) because He wanted Hitler to repent more so than the others. Open theism results in God placing more value on the most evil people than on everyone else. It does not solve the "problem of evil" one iota. The fact that all kinds of purposeless evil can happen that is outside God's knowledge or eternal decree is a breathtakingly horrifying concept!

The only way to believe in the God of the Bible and to "solve" the "problem of evil" is to embrace it. We have to accept that all the evil that happens in the world ultimately finds its origin in the eternal decree and purpose of God. No finite human can understand how this can work. It is a mystery, but it is a logical and Scriptural necessity.

 

Van,

1. After considering your posts, I believe I agree with you on one point: If God knows everything, then as far is my mind can comprehend that means God did Predestine it, At least to the extent of knowing the conditions he was creating would result in exactly the actions that his creatures performed. So upon further consideration, I would have to say your OP is correct in that regard as to the two options available. This does not make me a Hyper-Calvinists, just a normal Calvinist.

2. I do not believe your view gives any better answer the problem of evil.

-Perhaps, read further...

-Perhaps, read further...

You now seem to be speaking your own logical impossibilities, which, as far as I can tell, go like this:
-If God knows all the future, then everything is predestined, which makes God the author of evil (you reject this idea)
-So..God chooses not to know all the future (this is supposed to solve the dilema)
-Yet God "knew Adam would Fall", "God's plan included the fall." ...
-Yet he "did not predestine the outcome by looking into Adams heart and creating a circumstance that He knew would result in sin."
-You further muddy the waters by saying that some sins God does predestine, and yet they are not considered sins that we will have to answer for, like Peter's denial:

I hope you can see how the things you are saying seem to not fit together. You are saying God is not the author of evil, BUT, he did know about and even plan for the fall, and Peter's sin, but some sins that God did predestine will not be punished because God predestined those...But he is not the author of evil.

 

No Van, that is not how it works. If Willis chooses the apple two weeks from now, that is what God knows. If Willis chooses the banana two weeks from now, THAT is what God knows. God knows what will certainly take place, but he does not determine whether Willis will choose the apple or banana. Willis chooses of his own free volition, God simply knows that choice in advance.

I have given the analogy of sports. If I could predict each college basketball game this weekend, who will win, and who will lose, and predict the exact score, that would be a fantastic feat would it not?

But what if all the games are fixed? What if I bribed the teams, coaches, referees, etc... so that the games came out exactly as I predicted. Would that be special? No, that would be a fix. It would be cheating, it is nothing to boast about. Even man can do this, in fact there are cases of games being fixed like this.

Prophecy or foreknowledge is no big deal if everything is fixed, even man can accurately predict what he has determined or fixed, nothing supernatural about this at all. I can predict I will have tuna for lunch tomorrow, big deal, I can determine right now to do that.

Folks simply can't grasp that God can know free will decisions before they occur, but he can. This is REAL power. What you other fellas believe in is not power at all, even men can do this.

 

Let's examine the passage closely:

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
1. Does Yahweh in His eternal essence have a literal voice that has spacial temporal properties, or is this a purposeful anthropomorphic utility that God uses to interact with His finite creatures?
2. Was God in His eternal state literally walking in the garden as Adam and Eve heard, or was that God anthropomorphically revealing Himself for their conviction?
3. Did Adam and Eve literally and successfully hide themselves from the presence of God, or were they trying to do that in their fear?

Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Did God ask because He actually did not know where Adam was presently, or was it for Adam's conviction?

Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
1. Was God really unaware if anyone told him that he was naked, or was this a rhetorical question for Adam's conviction?
2. Did God not know if Adam had eaten of the tree? If so, He would not know the past exhaustively, nor we He be observing the full present (fruit no longer on the tree). Or, was he asking rhetorically for Adam's conviction?

Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
Did God really not know what Eve had done, or was He asking rhetorically for Eve's conviction?

 

Upon what basis does God know the autonomous, libertarian choice of an ontologically separate being? If your answer is simply "Because he's God," then you are begging the question, because that is the question at hand.

If part of God's essential being is His exhaustive knowledge of the future, and this future contains some things that are determined 100% autonomously by something outside His eternal decree, then part of the definition of God's very eternal being is dependent on something that He created. This would be illogical because it really is saying that something is created in a vacuum (or created by something else other than God). Therefore, the argument from process theology would hold (contrary to Scripture) that argues that God and man create each other in their own image rather than that God created man in His image alone. Ultimately, the interdependence of God and creation for their essence devolves into the process theology argument that God could not really have created the universe (or that there is some eternality to some universe). Obviously, I know you don't believe that, but the illogicality of the simple foreknowledge position leaves itself wide upon to the attacks of process theology.

 

Bog problem of Open theists is that they are trying to account for fictional aspect of creation,,, That WE have still have Libertine free Will...

Adam and Eve might have had tthat, but NONE since them have had it any more, as all under the "Bondage of the Human Will!"

 

NOTHING happens outside of the scope of God either knowing that it would happen, or from the scope of Him at any time, or deciding to 'step in directly!"

 

I do believe that God anticipated every result of every decision and action of man, but did not plot the course and force man to do everything that man has done. God injected the ability in humans to make unwise choices but He does not make those unwise choices for man, man does that on his own. I do believe for every unwise choice made by man, there was a wise choice available to man which was brushed aside in preference by that man for the unwise choice.

There is an element of 'unwilling subjection' in the idea of God making man or forcing man to do God's will. I believe the very reason God allowed man the freedom to choose good or evil, thus allowing the entrance of sin into the world, was to eliminate this element of obvious 'forced subjection' in what was to become His Bride.

I tend to think God never seeks His own glory. He doesn't need to create a chorus of rocks crying out to give Him praise, it is just that even the rocks know what a good God we serve, and what great desire all in nature that really understands God has a great urge to shout His praise.

God, on the other hand, was seen trudging up the hill at Mt. Calvary with only one thing in view - His Bride He was coming and going to save.

A humble servant of the Lord is wiser than the mighty. Thank you for posting.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

I would be one to "speculate" that God is more "motivated" by Love rather than the seeking of Glory, as I don't see him in "NEED" of glory. When we seek, earnestly, as honestly and earnestly as is possible for us, to bring and ascribe glory to God, it is for our benefit in that we are taking our attention off of ourselves and placing it upon our creator. We are largely motivated by "self interests", even unfortunately in pursuit of our obligations and "rewards" as a believer.

 

Well, I don't know exactly what you and others mean by "libertarian" free will. I believe we have free will, but I also believe God or others can influence our choices. It is like chess, you always have the freedom to make the move you choose, but your choices can be limited by your opponent. Nevertheless, you are free to make any choices available to you. You always have option, and you make the decision.

It may be begging the question, but I would say it is a given that God has supernatural powers. We may not be able to predict what choices a free person might make, but God can. I cannot understand this, but I cannot understand how God spoke the universe into existence, and yet it exists.

Well, I don't know if I would agree with this. You seem to attempt to explain God in man's wisdom. Good luck with that.

Men are able to create things. Your imaginations are yours. God does not put wicked thoughts in your mind, those thoughts arise out of your own heart. I posted three verses from Jeremiah where the Jews were sacrificing their infants to idols. God himself said he never commanded this, and that these actions did not come into his heart or mind. So obviously this wicked sin originated in the hearts of those who committed this sin, or at least the first person who did so and was passed down.

Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

If Calvinists could grasp the reality of free will, all the "mystery" would go away.

 

Brother, I am sorry that may analogy has failed. Just because He knew I was going to choose the banana over the apple in no way means He determined what I would choose. He knows/knew all things, but does not exhaustively determine everything that comes to pass. He allows wickedness to abound(look at this world now), but He is not the force behind them.

 

Thank you Brother Winman for seeing what I was trying to convey. Just because He knows what is going to happen three years from now, does not mean He is exhaustively determining it to happen. He has perfect knowledge, and has no "aha" moments. :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

:thumbs:

Well said, and a good note to end a thread that has gone over our limit.