I believe that everyone who is saved is saved by grace through faith, not of themselves, it is the gift of God and not as the result of works.
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Actual Atonement vs Potential Atonement
- Thread starter Earth Wind and Fire
- Start date
I believe that everyone who is saved is saved by grace through faith, not of themselves, it is the gift of God and not as the result of works.
Savedbymercy,
I am interested, now, in you beliefs.
DaChaser said that a sinner is saved by grace through faith, that prior to this faith he is unsaved- a comment that caused you to call him a liar.
You said “lie. The scripture plainly states that even while those Christ died for were enemies to God, by nature, that they had been reconciled to God by the Death of His son Rom 5:10.”
This is what the passage that you offer to support callin DaChaser a liar states:
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
How do you defend you statement that DaChaser1 is a liar because he sees the unregenerate as under the wrath of God until such time as he believes (prior to actually holding faith in Christ)?
I am interested, now, in you beliefs.
DaChaser said that a sinner is saved by grace through faith, that prior to this faith he is unsaved- a comment that caused you to call him a liar.
You said “lie. The scripture plainly states that even while those Christ died for were enemies to God, by nature, that they had been reconciled to God by the Death of His son Rom 5:10.”
This is what the passage that you offer to support callin DaChaser a liar states:
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
How do you defend you statement that DaChaser1 is a liar because he sees the unregenerate as under the wrath of God until such time as he believes (prior to actually holding faith in Christ)?
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savedbymercy
New Member
You said already, why is it that everyone without exception is saved by Grace through Faith ? You said believing is a work of God ! If that is so, why do not all people believe if its God's Work ?
savedbymercy
New Member
jonc
I have already gave my statement for that. Those Christ died for have been reconciled to God by the Death of His Son, even while they are enemies, unregenerated, unbelievers. Therefore they are not under the wrath of God whie enemies. Being reconciled makes that clear. The word reconciled is the greek word katallassō and means:
to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value
a) to reconcile (those who are at variance)
b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one
c) to receive one into favour
Everyone Christ died for are in God's favor, not under His wrath, for Christ has propitiated God's wrath on their behalf !
I have already gave my statement for that. Those Christ died for have been reconciled to God by the Death of His Son, even while they are enemies, unregenerated, unbelievers. Therefore they are not under the wrath of God whie enemies. Being reconciled makes that clear. The word reconciled is the greek word katallassō and means:
to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value
a) to reconcile (those who are at variance)
b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one
c) to receive one into favour
Everyone Christ died for are in God's favor, not under His wrath, for Christ has propitiated God's wrath on their behalf !
I didn’t know if you were asking “why does not every person believe” or “is everyone (who is saved) saved by grace through faith. I answered the latter.
The reason, I believe, that everyone is not saved is that everyone is not effectually called unto salvation. The elect will be saved, why God chooses some and not others is not something that I am willing to speculate other than to say that it is for His glory. So the best answer that I can give you is that everyone is not saved because God has not elected everyone unto salvation.
Actually, that was not my question. My question is how can you be interacting in Christ and call another Christian a liar if they hold a view or understanding that is contrary to your own. Galatians clearly states the fruit of the spirit, Ephesians clearly states how to deal with one another in Christ. You did not merely claim that he was mistaking or misinterpreting scripture – you called his statement a “lie.” There is a difference between stating something out of misunderstanding Scripture and deliberately misrepresenting what you clearly understand to be true. (personally, I do not think that DaChaser1 did either).
I am well acquainted with the meaning of reconciliation. This is what I understand you to be saying (please correct me if I am wrong, sometimes this type of correspondence can lead to miscommunication and it is not my intention to misrepresent your words):
Christ died for the sins of the elect and their sins are atoned for, God’s wrath is appeased and therefore they are not under condemnation – this is not dependent on grace through faith, but rather on Christ’s work on the cross. They were made right with God before they were born.
My understanding is that God saves the elect by grace through faith. Apart from faith, we cannot be saved, but by grace God saves through faith. Faith is by the grace of God to the elect.
So, my questions, if you are willing to answer, are threefold.
1. How do you justify stating that another Christian is intentionally misrepresenting scripture by stating what he understands to be false (lying)?
2. Do I understand you correctly, and if not, where am I misunderstanding your words?
3. Where do we disagree on my understanding?
savedbymercy
New Member
jonc
If someone teaches against what scripture says, they are lying. It is not a matter of defending my view, but defending the Faith . Now scripture says that those Christ died for are by that Death reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10, so therefore they cannot be under God's Wrath ! Also, scripture says that those Christ died for, By that Death God has been propitiated 1 Jn 2:2, that means God's Wrath has been satisfied, appeased, so it is impossible for anyone Christ died for to be under God's Wrath, without denying the Death of Christ.s accomplishement with God.
Thats how I am answering that question !
If someone teaches against what scripture says, they are lying. It is not a matter of defending my view, but defending the Faith . Now scripture says that those Christ died for are by that Death reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10, so therefore they cannot be under God's Wrath ! Also, scripture says that those Christ died for, By that Death God has been propitiated 1 Jn 2:2, that means God's Wrath has been satisfied, appeased, so it is impossible for anyone Christ died for to be under God's Wrath, without denying the Death of Christ.s accomplishement with God.
Thats how I am answering that question !
I hate to point this out, but by your own standards you are lying.
1 Jn 2:2 does not say that “those Christ died for, by that death God has been propitiated.”
1 Jn 2:2 says “and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins.”
– you have misrepresented what the text actually says by stating your rendering of that text. You interpret it to say that Christ propitiated for the sins; however the text describes Christ as the propitiation of those sins. Although you are not incorrect in your belief, you are incorrect in what the text of the passage states (and in your interpretation of this particular verse). You are therefore a liar by your standard – not mine. Your presentation of 1 Jn 2:2 is not what is actually said in that verse (you have changed the subject of the passage from Christ to "those Christ died for"), which is a false rendering of the verse.
We will leave this at that – you are a liar by your standard of the use of the word. You have altered Scripture to suit your needs - Our discussion definitely ends here. Never mind answering the other two questions - I will not interact with someone who disregards Scripture to the extent that they would actually change the text to prove a point. Christians need to have a higher regard of Scripture that you present in this forum. I will continue praying for you, but I will not interact with you at this time.
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savedbymercy
New Member
jonc
Same thing !
Same thing !
"There is the pride of the heretic who will utter false doctrines because he thinks his own judgment to be better than the Word of God...he is a disputant but not a disciple. He will insist upon it that his own reason is to be the well-spring of his own beliefs, and he will receive nothing beyond his own reach." (Spurgeon)
Just curious as to WHEN sinners receive that Justification to God?
At birth, before, just when IF not at the time if placing faith in jesus getting us justified and reconciled back to God as per my understanding of the Gospel?
Savedbymercy has made it abundantly clear that his interpretation of Scripture is the same thing as Scripture itself. The elevation of man’s reason to the revelation of God is one sign of a cult or a false teacher. I am not sure what you are seeking to gain by your question or interaction, but I sincerely doubt that the result will approach edification. As he feels at liberty to rewrite Scripture - for clairty, I'm sure - proceed with caution.
It seems that your debate with savedbymercy is between a pecuniary particular redemption vs. a penal particular redemption.
The Lutheran Church deals with atonement separate from election, they do not try to reconcile the two - not that I’m Lutheran, although I did take my son to an Easter Egg hunt at a Lutheran chruch once. (I know, I know, pagan rituals – but there be chocolate in them eggs).
savedbymercy
New Member
Sinners that Christ died for are Justified before God before the world began, the actual Payment for their Justification in time was at the Cross, then they were Justified by His Blood Rom 5:9
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Christ's resurrection from the Dead evidenced it Rom 4:25
25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Then they receive it by Faith at their New Birth. Up until then, they do not know they were Justified by Christ's Blood !
Now, if you have read my threads, I have already stated these things before !
Your understanding is works ! You are saying something man does [placing his faith in Jesus] gets one Justified, that is works !
So the bible CLEARLY states that ALL havesinned, fallen shor tof glory of God, dead in our sins, enemies of God...
Yet, you claim that some of them are both sinners/saints estranged/reconciled to God AT SAME TIME?
savedbymercy
New Member
dac
Who has denied that ? deal with the scriptures I just provided in the previous post to your previous inquiry !
Who has denied that ? deal with the scriptures I just provided in the previous post to your previous inquiry !
Michael Wrenn
New Member
You'll be forgiven, but you may have to go to confession first; I mean, this is such a grave sin.
savedbymercy
New Member
An erronous concept exposed !
Christ's Death was meted out in proportion for those He definitely died for, their sins !
More on this erroneous concept that Christ's Death could save more than for whom it was intended to save, for thats a lie, for God does not operate that way, but in Just Measures Prov 16:11
A just weight and balance are the LORD's: all the weights of the bag are his work.
God will mete out punishment according to a mans works ! Jer 25:14
For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.
Matt 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
God is of exactness, accuracy, Justice and Equity. Now if He shall Judge each of the wicked according to their works in strict justice for their sins, then He Judged Christ accordingly for each man Christ stood in the place and stead of, that is Just God's Nature to do so because He is a Just God Deut 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Christ was given a Cup to drink Matt 26:42, a cup among other things is a unit of measure or capacity !
And so thats why it is said in the day of Judgment, that He will open of the books , and everyone will be meted out punishment according to their works or violations committed against God's Law, that Christ did not die for. So likewise the Cup of Christ's suffering was meted out according to the exactness of the violations of each man of God's Elect, it was according to their sins 1 Cor 15:3
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
To go beyond this is human conjecture, guess work,assumption and not found in scripture !
Christ's Death was meted out in proportion for those He definitely died for, their sins !
More on this erroneous concept that Christ's Death could save more than for whom it was intended to save, for thats a lie, for God does not operate that way, but in Just Measures Prov 16:11
A just weight and balance are the LORD's: all the weights of the bag are his work.
God will mete out punishment according to a mans works ! Jer 25:14
For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.
Matt 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
God is of exactness, accuracy, Justice and Equity. Now if He shall Judge each of the wicked according to their works in strict justice for their sins, then He Judged Christ accordingly for each man Christ stood in the place and stead of, that is Just God's Nature to do so because He is a Just God Deut 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Christ was given a Cup to drink Matt 26:42, a cup among other things is a unit of measure or capacity !
And so thats why it is said in the day of Judgment, that He will open of the books , and everyone will be meted out punishment according to their works or violations committed against God's Law, that Christ did not die for. So likewise the Cup of Christ's suffering was meted out according to the exactness of the violations of each man of God's Elect, it was according to their sins 1 Cor 15:3
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
To go beyond this is human conjecture, guess work,assumption and not found in scripture !
We believe that the death of Chrsit was suuficient payment to have ALL that would come would be saved by that act, but that ONLY the elect will be able to come!
dacrifice has INFINITE means/worth to it, as was God dying upon the Cross!