God required faith to have someone saved in old Covenant, same as under the new one...
the Cross basis of God saving all, but faith still required for all!
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
New Birth before and Unto Faith !
- Thread starter savedbymercy
- Start date
- Status
God required faith to have someone saved in old Covenant, same as under the new one...
the Cross basis of God saving all, but faith still required for all!
savedbymercy
New Member
Men are saved by Grace under any covenant. Faith has never been a requirement to get saved, that is salvation by works !
savedbymercy
New Member
dhk
Not as a believer, judas was an unbeliever, Jesus made that known Jn 6:64
But there are some of you that believe not." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who believed not and who should betray Him.
It is pointless to even make a statement like that !
Not as a believer, judas was an unbeliever, Jesus made that known Jn 6:64
But there are some of you that believe not." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who believed not and who should betray Him.
It is pointless to even make a statement like that !
No, it is not pointless at all. Christ, being God, is omniscient. God does not allow his omniscience to get in the way of who will be saved and who will not. Man still has the responsibility of choosing to reject or choosing to receive Christ. Just because God knows ahead of time does not mean that God forces the person to make the choice that God knows. Far from it. God did not force Judas to do anything, though he knew of it. Judas was fully responsible for his own actions. He doesn't get off the hook that easily.
savedbymercy
New Member
dhk
To me it is, Jesus clearly made judas a exception, no need to speculate !
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name. Those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
To me it is, Jesus clearly made judas a exception, no need to speculate !
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name. Those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
savedbymercy
New Member
New Birth before Repentance and Faith !
Now for those who have being paying attention to the Truth of 1 Pet 1:3
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
That thereby the Resurrection of Christ from the Dead [Col 1:18;Rev 1:5], those He died for or in behalf of, are begotten again, or given a New Birth, and that being their conversion. Why is that their conversion ?
Because that New Birth is actually what God does to give them change of mind, and devotion to God. The word begotten again in 1 Pet 1:3 is the greek words anagennaō: and means:
to produce again, be born again, born anew
2) metaph. to have one's mind changed or repentance so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God
You see that ? That basically is what conversion to God is. When Paul said this to the Thessalonians 1 Thess 1:9
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
Then He knew they had to be of those who had been begotten again by the Resurrection of Christ from the Dead !
It should be easy to see that repentance [a change of mind] belongs to that one who has been begotten again by the Resurrection of Christ from the Dead. So this teaches New Birth before and unto Repentance, what is called in another place Repentance unto Life See Acts 11:18 !
Yes, only those can and do repent, be converted, that have been begotten again, by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead !
And Repentance is always accompanied by Faith in Christ, because that is what makes Repentance valuable, it turns us from Idols to Faith in the True God and Saviour Jesus Christ, Acts 20:21
21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
They go hand and hand folks, so if Repentance is evidence of New Birth so is Faith !
Now for those who have being paying attention to the Truth of 1 Pet 1:3
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
That thereby the Resurrection of Christ from the Dead [Col 1:18;Rev 1:5], those He died for or in behalf of, are begotten again, or given a New Birth, and that being their conversion. Why is that their conversion ?
Because that New Birth is actually what God does to give them change of mind, and devotion to God. The word begotten again in 1 Pet 1:3 is the greek words anagennaō: and means:
to produce again, be born again, born anew
2) metaph. to have one's mind changed or repentance so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God
You see that ? That basically is what conversion to God is. When Paul said this to the Thessalonians 1 Thess 1:9
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
Then He knew they had to be of those who had been begotten again by the Resurrection of Christ from the Dead !
It should be easy to see that repentance [a change of mind] belongs to that one who has been begotten again by the Resurrection of Christ from the Dead. So this teaches New Birth before and unto Repentance, what is called in another place Repentance unto Life See Acts 11:18 !
Yes, only those can and do repent, be converted, that have been begotten again, by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead !
And Repentance is always accompanied by Faith in Christ, because that is what makes Repentance valuable, it turns us from Idols to Faith in the True God and Saviour Jesus Christ, Acts 20:21
21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
They go hand and hand folks, so if Repentance is evidence of New Birth so is Faith !
This is the argument set forth in Romans 6:6-11. He is not arguing that their new birth occurred at the resurrection of Jesus Christ but it has it root and source of power in the same power that resurrected Christ from the dead. We are regenerated by the same resurrection power. Furthermore, it is the resurrection of Christ that actually acheived victory over death and is the proof that God accepted the atonement of Christ or else death would still have the victory over the body of Christ.
Thank you! Where there is regeneration there is conversion in a cause and effect relationship but inseparable from each other. Hence, there is no such thing as a regenerated but unbeleiving child of God any more than there is a unregenerated believing child of God. To be drawn is to be coming and to give sight is to be seeing and to give ears to hear is to be hearing. Regeneration is being given a BELIEVING HEART rather than an unbelievering heart that can or will beleive.
savedbymercy
New Member
the bib
Rabbit trail ! 1 pet 1:3 Everyone Christ died for and behalf of, shall live [spiritually] by His Resurrection from the Dead, by it they shall be begotten again, you can try to twist and pervert it all you want, the Truth remains !
Regeneration or New Birth is the New Creature , the New Man, that is who Believes in Christ and evidences it as Rom 10:9-10 describes !
And unbelieving heart is Lost, where did I state that an unbelieving Heart will believe. An unbelieving heart is a wicked , and evil heart that we all have by Nature. Heb 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Thats the heart we have by nature Jer 17:9
9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
This heart we have by nature can never be that Heart described in Rom 10:9-10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
So what are you talking about ? Do you even know ?
Rabbit trail ! 1 pet 1:3 Everyone Christ died for and behalf of, shall live [spiritually] by His Resurrection from the Dead, by it they shall be begotten again, you can try to twist and pervert it all you want, the Truth remains !
Regeneration or New Birth is the New Creature , the New Man, that is who Believes in Christ and evidences it as Rom 10:9-10 describes !
And unbelieving heart is Lost, where did I state that an unbelieving Heart will believe. An unbelieving heart is a wicked , and evil heart that we all have by Nature. Heb 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Thats the heart we have by nature Jer 17:9
9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
This heart we have by nature can never be that Heart described in Rom 10:9-10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
So what are you talking about ? Do you even know ?
You simply do not understand what I said. Go back and read what I said again and more carefully. Peter did not say we were regenerated when Christ arose from the grave! Do you actually believe that? If so, then what on earth does the Holy Spirit do in time and space????
All Peter is saying is the "rabbit trail" fuller explanation by Paul in Romans 6:6-11 - go read it before you call it a "rabbit trail."
The same power that raised Christ from the grave is the same power that regenerates us and empowers us to live the Christian life. The resurrection of Christ provided proof that sin was completely satisfied by the atonement of Christ or else death would still keep Christ's body captive in the grave. Peter is simply saying that because He lived we shall live also not that we obtained spiritual life when Christ resurrected from the grave any more than we obtained eternal life before the world began.
When you demand that justifying faith is something that occurs AFTER God gives a new heart, you are inferring that the heart God gives is an UNBELIEVING HEART when it is given because you place faith AFTER the heart has been given. If faith is the AFTER thought of the new heart then God gives an UNBELIEVING heart which must subsequently express faith. The new heart is not simply the ability to LATER express faith but it is a BELIEVING HEART when it is given because it is only given in connection with the gospel and that is what Paul means when he says the gospel is "THE POWER of God" as it because the effectual call of God, the command of God to the elect when it is preached (1 Thes. 1:4-5) or applied to the elect.
Hence, you are correct when you said that regeneration is conversion in that regeneration is giving repentance. You give a LOGICAL cause and affect relationship between regeneration and repentance but do not give a CHRONOLOGICAL order as they are inseparable as drawing is from coming. You cannot draw a bucket out of a well without it coming up out of the well at the same moment in time. You cannot come to Christ in faith without being drawn to Christ at the same time. You cannot be turning away from sin without turning to righteousness at the same time. Therefore there is no such thing as a regenerated but unbelieving person any more than there is such a thing as a unregenerated but believing person. Hence, hyper-calvinism and Arminianism are both wrong as the Biblical teaching denies regeneration and conversion can be separated or exist without the other.
Last edited by a moderator:
savedbymercy
New Member
the bib
1 Pet 1:3 teaches that the New Birth comes to all those Christ died for, through His Resurrection. They all [whom he died for] shall be begotten again by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead. 1 Pet 1:3
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
The ESV 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Either you believe the word of Truth you don't, no diversions and evasions by rabbit trails !
1 Pet 1:3 teaches that the New Birth comes to all those Christ died for, through His Resurrection. They all [whom he died for] shall be begotten again by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead. 1 Pet 1:3
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
The ESV 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Either you believe the word of Truth you don't, no diversions and evasions by rabbit trails !
savedbymercy
New Member
the bib
The New Creation cannot have a Unbelieving Heart, it is born of God. However it will believe when the Gospel is Preached unto it, Faith at that time will be called into action !
The New Creation cannot have a Unbelieving Heart, it is born of God. However it will believe when the Gospel is Preached unto it, Faith at that time will be called into action !
Our impass is the words "through His resurrection." If you mean by those words we were regenerated when Christ rose from the grave then you are misinterpreting this scripture because we were not born again WHEN Christ rose from the grave. We were born again by the Holy Spirit after we were born into this world and at the appointed time of our conversion to the gospel of Jesus Christ through which we were justified by faith in that gospel "before God" (Rom. 4:1-5:1).
On the other hand if you mean it is "through" the resurrection of Christ that provides the basis and power for God to regenerate us in time and space then we agree.
savedbymercy
New Member
the bib
Yes, that is what the Scripture says 1 Pet 1:3
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
The word by here is the prep dia and means:
by reason of
on account of
because of for this reason
therefore
on this account
Problem ?
Yes, that is what the Scripture says 1 Pet 1:3
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
The word by here is the prep dia and means:
by reason of
on account of
because of for this reason
therefore
on this account
Problem ?
Faith cannot be "called into action" because either it is or it is not! There is no middle ground between faith and unbelief.
God has always saved us by his Grace, and that is found in the Cross of christ, but he always required us to place faith in his promises of the coming Messiah in OT, and the messiah who came in the new!
NO faith, NO salvation!
Last edited by a moderator:
savedbymercy
New Member
yesh
Work salvation
Work salvation !
Your act of Faith is your salvation !
Work salvation
Work salvation !
Your act of Faith is your salvation !
savedbymercy
New Member
Faith is called into Action when the New Man Hears the Gospel and Believes. Believing is an act of Man, its a action verb !
The New Created in Christ Jesus cannot be a unbeliever ! Unbelief is a product of the flesh !
the Just shall live by their faith!
faith unto faith!
Unless you believe, you will die in your sins!
Unless you turn to the snake upon the cross in wilderness, and place faith in God, you will die from the serpant bites, same way unless turn to Christ upon cross and place faith in him, you will die from sin!
God either grants us the faith needed to believe in jesus! Cal. my view
God grants to us common grace, and we all have chance to have saving faith thru hearing of the gospel Arminian
Either way, the just shall live, and get saved, by faith in Christ!
savedbymercy
New Member
Faith is a substance, a heavenly, spiritual substance, it is not generated by the carnal or natural mind of man, for it is an Eternal Substance, that God gives in New Birth to comprehend Eternal Realties 2 Cor 4:18-5:7
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Note: This Truth here should silence all lies about Faith being generated by the flesh of man, because the flesh cannot comprehend unseen spiritual realities, from eternity !
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight )
It is most blasphemous to teach that faith Heb 11:1, is a product of a creature of time, even more, a fallen creature, in a spiritual dead state and alienated from the Life of God. Faith deals with the Eternal and Unseen, things the natural mind cannot comprehend, for its like a gold fish trying to comprehend algerba ! The Faith of Heb 11:1 is not present in the natural man, but only the spiritual man, the born of God or born of incorruptible seed 1 Pet 1:23, the Word of God,As the Father of the Faithful, Abraham had this Faith, for he was born out of incorruptible seed, the word of God and He was promised a numerous seed of that same kind of Faith, the Children of Promise !
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Note: This Truth here should silence all lies about Faith being generated by the flesh of man, because the flesh cannot comprehend unseen spiritual realities, from eternity !
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight )
It is most blasphemous to teach that faith Heb 11:1, is a product of a creature of time, even more, a fallen creature, in a spiritual dead state and alienated from the Life of God. Faith deals with the Eternal and Unseen, things the natural mind cannot comprehend, for its like a gold fish trying to comprehend algerba ! The Faith of Heb 11:1 is not present in the natural man, but only the spiritual man, the born of God or born of incorruptible seed 1 Pet 1:23, the Word of God,As the Father of the Faithful, Abraham had this Faith, for he was born out of incorruptible seed, the word of God and He was promised a numerous seed of that same kind of Faith, the Children of Promise !
- Status