Alive in Christ
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I meant Matthew 18, sorry. It was late at night where I live and I was a bit tired.
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Semi-Pelagianism
- Thread starter Michael Wrenn
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I meant Matthew 18, sorry. It was late at night where I live and I was a bit tired.
Michael Wrenn
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Yes but I will have to go over it latter. On my way to church.
I've been doing some more reading on Aquinas and his view of the atonement. I didn't think it was possible to find a view that I disagreed with as much as, or more than, penal substitution, but I have found it in the views of Aquinas.
"Faith" per se, is naturally innate within every person. Even Jesus stated that. You do believe Christ don't you? He said, if you don't have faith as a little child you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.Romans 8:8-9 when compared to Hebrews 11:6 proves that no lost person can believe as Romans 8:8 denies they have that ability (ou dunatai). John 6:44 as interpreted by Christ in John 6:64-65 proves that no man can come to Christ by faith unless it is "given" unto him by the Father. Hence, faith in the gospel is not natural born ability.
--What did he mean by that? Every person has faith, even little children. It is the object of the faith that is important. The object of the faith in little children is their parents. They know intuitively that it is the parent that will protect and provide for them, while a stranger will not.
--When a person hears the gospel (the power of God unto salvation), he is enlightened by the Holy Spirit, and realizes that Christ is the only way to heaven. He puts Christ as the object of his faith. That is, he puts his trust in Christ. That is what salvation is. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Never, not once, does the Bible teach that God gives faith in order for one to be saved.
The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.Hence, both Moriah and DHK are wrong. Both believe that the lost man has natural ability to believe. Moriah believes that unaided lost man in and of himself can believe in the gospel while DHK believes lost man can believe once enlightened by the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and of judgment.
You are wrong. Christians can be in the flesh, can be carnal, and often don't please God. Christians can be the enemy of God by the way they act!However, Romans 8:8-9 denies Moriah's position completely as it outrightly denies that those "in the flesh" can please God and it takes faith to please God (Heb. 11:6). Romans 8:8-9 denies DHK's position completely as there is no MIDDLE or THIRD option provided by Paul between being "in the flesh" versus "in the Spirit." Those "in the flesh" ARE NOT ABLE (Gr. ou dunatai) to please God and faith is required to please God (Heb. 11:6) and faith in Christ is something that must be "given" (Jn. 6:44 as interpreted by Christ in John 6:64-65) and thus is not a natural born ability as DHK believes.
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
--This is written to believers, not the unsaved.
He calls them adulterers; they had committed spiritual adultery for being friends of the world.
He says that those who are friends with the world are at enmity with God.
He says that if you are a friend of the world you are the enemy of God!
He is addressing carnal Christians. He is addressing those that are walking in the flesh.
Paul does the same thing elsewhere:
1 Corinthians 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
--Three times he calls them carnal.
He addresses them as believers, Christians. They were saved individuals.
But they had not grown in the Lord as they should have. Therefore Paul had to start all over again with the basics of Christianity. The reason? They were carnal; friends of the world; at enmity with God.
They should have been more mature in the Lord but they weren't.
God expects holiness in our lives, but often that holiness is absent.
When he finds worldliness instead, he finds something that is abhorrent to him. It is his enemy. The carnal Christian cannot please God. Without faith it is impossible to please God. What carnal Christian practices a walk of faith? None. But yet they are saved.
God expects holiness in our lives, but often that holiness is absent.
When he finds worldliness instead, he finds something that is abhorrent to him. It is his enemy. The carnal Christian cannot please God. Without faith it is impossible to please God. What carnal Christian practices a walk of faith? None. But yet they are saved.
It is good to hear that you believe hearing the gospel is in its self enlightening, and not that a person is predestined to be made to believe by being born again first.
However, you still seem to believe that a person can be worldly and sinful and still be saved, yet the Word of God says the person born again is one who overcomes the world. 1 John If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.
He is righteous in his standing before God.It is good to hear that you believe hearing the gospel is in its self enlightening, and not that a person is predestined to be made to believe by being born again first.
However, you still seem to believe that a person can be worldly and sinful and still be saved, yet the Word of God says the person born again is one who overcomes the world. 1 John If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.
There are many that sin in their Christian life. But they do not lose their salvation. Those who do not admit their sin, but claim sinfulness are those that others wonder about if they are really saved. For the Bible says about such people:
They call Christ a liar.
The Word is not in them. (1John 1:10)
--If those things are true, then how can that person be saved?
I didn't write the Bible. Here is what is says:
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
--These are Christians, Christians that are the enemies of God because of their sin.
But you say you are perfectly righteous in your life. Are you? Have you reached entire sanctification, sinlessness? Then beware.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
He is righteous in his standing before God.
There are many that sin in their Christian life. But they do not lose their salvation. Those who do not admit their sin, but claim sinfulness are those that others wonder about if they are really saved. For the Bible says about such people:
They call Christ a liar.
The Word is not in them. (1John 1:10)
--If those things are true, then how can that person be saved?
I didn't write the Bible. Here is what is says:
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
--These are Christians, Christians that are the enemies of God because of their sin.
But you say you are perfectly righteous in your life. Are you? Have you reached entire sanctification, sinlessness? Then beware.
I must say that I don't understand how someone can hold the view that we can be as Adam was before the Fall. Because even after our spiritual rebirth, we are not in pre-Fall bodies, we don't have pre-Fall wills and spirits, and this is still a fallen world that we live in.
He is righteous in his standing before God.
There are many that sin in their Christian life. But they do not lose their salvation. Those who do not admit their sin, but claim sinfulness are those that others wonder about if they are really saved. For the Bible says about such people:
They call Christ a liar.
The Word is not in them. (1John 1:10)
--If those things are true, then how can that person be saved?
I didn't write the Bible. Here is what is says:
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
--These are Christians, Christians that are the enemies of God because of their sin.
But you say you are perfectly righteous in your life. Are you? Have you reached entire sanctification, sinlessness? Then beware.
You keep saying things that no one has said. Why do you do that? Who is influencing you to do that? Where did I ever say no one ever sins? Where did I say people can sin and not confess? Why do you make up things?
Deal with what I did say, and take note that what I said was ONLY the scriptures.
We know that we are born again when we do what is right. See 1 John 2:29. You are arguing against the Word of God.
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I must say that I don't understand how someone can hold the view that we can be as Adam was before the Fall. Because even after our spiritual rebirth, we are not in pre-Fall bodies, we don't have pre-Fall wills and spirits, and this is still a fallen world that we live in.
I am not trying to be mean to you Michael, but you do not understand about stop sinning, but I do not understand how you can deny that Jesus died for our sins.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Michael, show us one statement from anyone that says we can be like Adam prior to the fall. Not saying it does not exist, just that I have never heard anyone in my entire life and studies that have made such a remark. I have heard it put up as a paper duck by Calvinists and those leaning hard towards Calvinisim as to something their opponents believe, but that is simply slander, lies, etc.
You keep saying things that no one has said. Why do you do that? Who is influencing you to do that? Where did I ever say no one ever sins?
Deal with what I did say, and take note that what I said was ONLY the scriptures.
We know that we are born again when we do what is right. See 1 John 2:29. You are arguing against the Word of God.
1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
That doesn't answer the post I gave does it?
Christians still sin. I said that long before you posted this red herring.
If you don't understand the meaning of this verse that is one thing.
The fact is that Christians still sin. I have given you Scripture to that end.
Do you reject it?
1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
That doesn't answer the post I gave does it?
Christians still sin. I said that long before you posted this red herring.
If you don't understand the meaning of this verse that is one thing.
The fact is that Christians still sin. I have given you Scripture to that end.
Do you reject it?
Do you reject these scriptures?
John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
How are you born again if you do the same sinful stuff you have always done?
Matthew 21:31 "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.
Explain what Jesus says here without YOU TELLING ME I AM A SINNING LIAR WHO NEVER CONFESSES.
Mark 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
Explain why Jesus explains the importance of NOT SINNING in such a horrific way?
1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
Explain this scripture to me without calling me a liar and a person who does not confess. Let us see how you can do that.
1 John 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
EVERYONE BORN OF GOD OVERCOMES THE WORLD. Go ahead and explain this without calling me a liar. See if you can.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
I am not trying to be mean to you Michael, but you do not understand about stop sinning, but I do not understand how you can deny that Jesus died for our sins.
I don't think you've ever been mean to me here, but I don't understand the part that I highlighted in bold.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
Michael, show us one statement from anyone that says we can be like Adam prior to the fall. Not saying it does not exist, just that I have never heard anyone in my entire life and studies that have made such a remark. I have heard it put up as a paper duck by Calvinists and those leaning hard towards Calvinisim as to something their opponents believe, but that is simply slander, lies, etc.
In studying the various views and definitions of entire sanctification in the holiness movement, this was one definition/view that I saw presented.
If I've asked before, please excuse me, but what is your view on sanctification/entire sanctification?
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The new birth says nothing about sin. It does not say a person will not sin again.
Do you reject these scriptures?
John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
How are you born again if you do the same sinful stuff you have always done?
If any verse would defeat your argument this one would. In this Scripture Jesus teaches that sinners such as publicans and prostitutes do enter the kingdom of God.Matthew 21:31 "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.
Explain what Jesus says here without YOU TELLING ME I AM A SINNING LIAR WHO NEVER CONFESSES.
No one said it is wrong to sin; it is. We shouldn't sin, but that doesn't mean we won't.Mark 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
Explain why Jesus explains the importance of NOT SINNING in such a horrific way?
Notice who the verbs are in the present continuous. It refers to a lifestyle of sin. For example a Christian could possibly commit the sin of adultery. But if he continued in a lifestyle of adultery it would be a fairly good indication that he is not saved.1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
Explain this scripture to me without calling me a liar and a person who does not confess. Let us see how you can do that.
The verse teaches eternal security. We will not lose our salvation. We are overcomers. There are many battles in this life. Some of them we will no doubt lose. But in the end we win the war.1 John 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
EVERYONE BORN OF GOD OVERCOMES THE WORLD. Go ahead and explain this without calling me a liar. See if you can.
John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
The new birth says nothing about sin. It does not say a person will not sin again.
You had better believe the new birth is about not sinning. There is your great error.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and Spirit.
What do you think born of water and Spirit means? I will wait for your answer. Then I will love to tell you the Truth.
Matthew 21:31 "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.
If any verse would defeat your argument this one would. In this Scripture Jesus teaches that sinners such as publicans and prostitutes do enter the kingdom of God.
This scripture tells us that tax collectors and prostitutes heard the message and did what the Father said to do! How do you think this scripture defeats my argument?
I have, in the past, given very detailed expositions of this passage. Suffice it say that the "water" is symbolic of the Word of God, as it states in 1Peter 1:23, and the Spirit is obviously the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit works through the Word of God in bringing a person to Christ. That is about as concise as I will get right now.You had better believe the new birth is about not sinning. There is your great error.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and Spirit.
What do you think born of water and Spirit means? I will wait for your answer. Then I will love to tell you the Truth.
Why? Because they were sinners!This scripture tells us that tax collectors and prostitutes heard the message and did what the Father said to do! How do you think this scripture defeats my argument?
Matthew 21:31 "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.
Don't add to the Word of God. It doesn't say "and did what the Father said to do."
Mark 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
No one said it is wrong to sin; it is. We shouldn't sin, but that doesn't mean we won't.
I got a scripture that made you back down from constantly defending sinning.
Why? Because they were sinners!
They were sinners who heard the message and did what the Father said to do!
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