Medication vs 'Self" medicating

[agedman]

Drugs mask sin, but confession and forsaking heals.

heals what?

 

[freeatlast]

Already answered multiple times.

But for any who missed.




No, that is not what I have repeatedly posted.

There is no other way to deal with sin than what God prescribes in the Scriptures - confess and forsake.







No, that is never been part of any post that I know of on this thread.

Medical intervention does not "cover" nor "cure" sin.

Medical intervention implies that some form of medical interference is involved. Humans have no ability to cover or cure sin. They have the ability to love the sin filled, and the love of God shed abroad through the believer does have the ability to cover.

Yes drugs do cover sin. That is why they are taken. Confession and forsaking heals.

 

[Arbo]

Yes I have and you reject the bible. Drugs mask sin, but confession and forsaking heals.

If I have rejected the Bible, then why do I repeatedly ask you for references from it?

I would be a fool to accept your word for it that it's there without proof.

My guess is that you have none, and so far it seems to be proving true. Prove me wrong.

 

[abcgrad94]

Yawn. I'm done with this thread. Same poster, same bull manure.

 

[freeatlast]

If I have rejected the Bible, then why do I repeatedly ask you for references from it?

I would be a fool to accept your word for it that it's there without proof.

My guess is that you have none, and so far it seems to be proving true. Prove me wrong.

You ask knowing you will reject it. Here is the proof. What does God say we are to do for our sin? Take drugs or confess and forsake?

 

[freeatlast]

Yawn. I'm done with this thread. Same poster, same bull manure.

Good no reason for you to waste bandwith and bore us.. :laugh:

 

[Arbo]

Freeatlast- All I have asked for were references. What I get is the charge of rejecting Scripture. You give none, because you have none. You are claiming a Biblical position that isn't Biblical. You either have a mistaken understanding of mental illness, the concept of sin as found in the Bible, or you are intentionally misusing Scripture.

I will leave you to wallow in your own mire.

 

[mandym]

Mental illness is not sin.

 

[freeatlast]

Freeatlast- All I have asked for were references. What I get is the charge of rejecting Scripture. You give none, because you have none. You are claiming a Biblical position that isn't Biblical. You either have a mistaken understanding of mental illness, the concept of sin as found in the Bible, or you are intentionally misusing Scripture.

I will leave you to wallow in your own mire.

I have given scripture and you reject it. I have also asked you questions and you refuse to answer. The end result is you stand apart from the word of God. God says confession and forsaking heals, not drugs. if the person confess and forsakes then there is no seeking for a drug. If they confess and do not forsake then they might turn to a drug to mask their sin. The problem with trying to fool the world is that you deceive yourself. Drugs deceive, confessing and forsaking heals. It is a matter of faith or not having faith. Who will you believe the Lord or some drug pusher/Doctor?
Here is a link with plenty of scripture, but like I said you reject scripture.
http://z13.invisionfree.com/Christian_Group/index.php?showtopic=4

 

[HankD]

There is only one place that I know of where "drugs" apart from alcohol abuse are implied and their use condemened, the Book of Revelation:

Revelation 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.​

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.​

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

The root of the word "sorcery" in each case is the koine word pharmakeia.​

Some NT lexicons associate the word pharmakeia with hallucinogenic or "mind expanding" drugs.​

The Greek Eleusinian mystery cults (e.g. Dianna of the Ephesians) priesthood used potions made from ergot (basic ingredient of LSD), mushrooms and/or certain flowers and their seeds to make a concotion a drink called Kykeon which sent the devotees into an hallucinogenic trance.​

Revelation is probably referring to these Mystery cults of their day.​

In the passage of time the use of these substances broke out of these mystery cults to the public at large and now is part of the modern drug culture, part of the human secularist society at large or Mystery Babylon.​

IMO FAL is correct in this respect: The world views conviction of sin as a mental disorder caused by guilt for sin. What else would we expect?​

For the world, guilt for sin (they would use a different terminology) is a disease and results in what they call a diminished sense of self worth, usually blamed on the parents.​

So I believe what FAL is saying is that these drugs are used by modern medicine practicioners to numb the brain center where these feelings arise and give temporary relief of the guilt.​

Of course that is not what a Christian (or anyone) should be doing except perhaps for a short time to keep them from hurting themselves until true Christian counsel from the Word of God can be given.​

Chemical imbalance, brain damage, epilepsy, diabetes, etc, is another matter altogether and IMO Christians should take advantage of these substances for healing or symptomatic relief.​

HankD​

 

[agedman]

I will separate your post and deal with each point, again.

I have given scripture and you reject it.

No one has rejected Scripture. That they do not submit to your own interpretation is not the issue. For you to claim a rejection of Scripture is not correct.

I have also asked you questions and you refuse to answer. The end result is you stand apart from the word of God.

I have (as well as the monitors of the forum) watched this thread carefully. Perhaps, because of the historically mean spiritless debate of some other related threads.

I have seen no question you have asked that has gone unanswered. If there is one - re-post it that it may be clearly answered.

You make judgement about positional agreement with God that you have no authority to make.

God says confession and forsaking heals, not drugs. if the person confess and forsakes then there is no seeking for a drug. If they confess and do not forsake then they might turn to a drug to mask their sin.

I left this part combined because of the repetition on the same thought.

Again, there has been NO disagreement with God or you about confessing and forsaking sin.

YOUR desire to proclaim as "sin" what may not be sin has been and remains an unanswered question posed to you. You were asked (more than once) to show by Scripture the foundation for your claim. You have not.

The problem with trying to fool the world is that you deceive yourself. Drugs deceive, confessing and forsaking heals.

Certainly, it is agreeable that much of what we assume is the thinking of this section is correct.

I would have put "some", or "the abuse of in the wording. For that would have given a more accurate portrayal of what the Scriptures do teach.

It is a matter of faith or not having faith. Who will you believe the Lord or some drug pusher/Doctor?

What more can be said than whatsoever is not of faith is sin. But that is a Principle of living. It applies to every avenue of our living not just health and wellness, but of all aspects of our humanness, too.

Sometimes foundational experiences and formative years establish patterns of sin that inflict us to our dying day. That is Scriptural.

Sometimes one is overtaken in a fault (doctrinal error, or societal misstep) and those who are spiritual seek to restore. That is Scriptural.

Sometimes a believer should seek out a Godly doctor who has the gift of healing(s) and been educated in modern tools. That is Scriptural.

God expects us to use faith (not our faith but that which He has given) along with wisdom, understanding, knowledge, ... to make appropriate decisions. That is Scriptural.

 

[freeatlast]

Hank you are close to what I am saying. I have never told anyone not to take drugs or get off the drugs. I am saying that the drugs do not meet the prescribed manner in which we are to deal with sin.
I fully understand that some people do not want, it is not about can't, to do what it takes to deal with sin as it can be very trying, but I have no authority to tell someone that taking the drugs is ordained by God because it is not. The only thing He offers for sin is confess and forsake and that is all I can offer, other then prayer, lest I stand against Him by adding to scripture.
Also I do tell people that any behavior problem is not due to an illness, but it is due to indwelling sin. The diagnosed illness is nothing but the sin being lived out. That is what the bible teaches and that is what I teach and I make no apologies for it.

 

[freeatlast]

I will separate your post and deal with each point, again.



No one has rejected Scripture. That they do not submit to your own interpretation is not the issue. For you to claim a rejection of Scripture is not correct.

Yes it is correct. I am not trying to interpret, I am repeating it.






I have (as well as the monitors of the forum) watched this thread carefully. Perhaps, because of the historically mean spiritless debate of some other related threads.

I have seen no question you have asked that has gone unanswered. If there is one - re-post it that it may be clearly answered.

You make judgement about positional agreement with God that you have no authority to make.

If you really wanted to answer you would have already as they have been repeated several times.



I left this part combined because of the repetition on the same thought.

Again, there has been NO disagreement with God or you about confessing and forsaking sin.

YOUR desire to proclaim as "sin" what may not be sin has been and remains an unanswered question posed to you. You were asked (more than once) to show by Scripture the foundation for your claim. You have not.

That is not true. I have given scripture and you reject it. I don't proclaim sin God does and you are rejecting His claims.



Certainly, it is agreeable that much of what we assume is the thinking of this section is correct.

I would have put "some", or "the abuse of in the wording. For that would have given a more accurate portrayal of what the Scriptures do teach.




What more can be said than whatsoever is not of faith is sin. But that is a Principle of living. It applies to every avenue of our living not just health and wellness, but of all aspects of our humanness, too.

Sometimes foundational experiences and formative years establish patterns of sin that inflict us to our dying day. That is Scriptural.

Sometimes one is overtaken in a fault (doctrinal error, or societal misstep) and those who are spiritual seek to restore. That is Scriptural.

Sometimes a believer should seek out a Godly doctor who has the gift of healing(s) and been educated in modern tools. That is Scriptural.

God expects us to use faith (not our faith but that which He has given) along with wisdom, understanding, knowledge, ... to make appropriate decisions. That is Scriptural.

You seem to suggest that we cannot help oursleves. God says different.
No temptation has taken us but is common to man and God will not allow us to be tempted above what we can handle.

In regards to behavior drugs mask the real issue, while confession and forsaking bring healing.

Christians should be seeking confession and forsaking not drugs.

 

[agedman]

Thank you for your post, pharmakeia most certainly is aligned with sorcery and witchcraft.

IMO FAL is correct in this respect: The world views conviction of sin as a mental disorder caused by guilt for sin. What else would we expect?​

However, this is not what FAL has stated in this thread. No where has he said that the world views "conviction of sin as a mental disorder" but he has turned it around and stated that a mental disorder is sin unconfessed and unforsaken.

For the world, guilt for sin (they would use a different terminology) is a disease and results in what they call a diminished sense of self worth, usually blamed on the parents.​

No doubt, but that has also not been part of the thread.

Thank you for bringing it up. It is important that a worldly perspective be given that the believer is wise.

So I believe what FAL is saying is that these drugs are used by modern medicine practicioners to numb the brain center where these feelings arise and give temporary relief of the guilt.​

But that is not what he has posted in this thread.

He has offered no proof of medication effects, and when asked to post what support he offers, brings nothing to "stand on."

Of course that is not what a Christian (or anyone) should be doing except perhaps for a short time to keep them from hurting themselves until true Christian counsel from the Word of God can be given.​

There is no disagreement.

But that is not what FAL has taken as his view.

I would add that, because there is no "cure" that some will continue medications as necessary throughout their life.

Why should they be "blamed" for taking what God has granted as a help?

Chemical imbalance, brain damage, epilepsy, diabetes, etc, is another matter altogether and IMO Christians should take advantage of these substances for healing or symptomatic relief.​

No argument, but then would not all of the OP list be included?

 

[freeatlast]

However, this is not what FAL has stated in this thread. No where has he said that the world views "conviction of sin as a mental disorder" but he has turned it around and stated that a mental disorder is sin unconfessed and unforsaken.


That is not true. I am saying that there is no mental illness that is causing the behavior, but in fact what is being called a mental illness is sin being lived out and not dealt with. Yes they may act crazy, but in fact they are in rebellion not ill unless you want to say they are sin sick.
Chemical imbalance does not cause the person to do evil. We are already evil. if there was a Chemical imbalance we would do righteousness not evil as our normal mode is evil. A Chemical imbalance would make us act different then we normally act which is evil. Chemical imbalance Is an excuse to put people on drugs which mask the real problem indwelling sin instead of confessing and forsaking.

 

[mandym]

However, this is not what FAL has stated in this thread. No where has he said that the world views "conviction of sin as a mental disorder" but he has turned it around and stated that a mental disorder is sin unconfessed and unforsaken.


That is not true. I am saying that there is no mental illness that is causing the behavior, but in fact what is being called a mental illness is sin being lived out and not dealt with. Yes they may act crazy, but in fact they are in rebellion not ill unless you want to say they are sin sick.

You are just pure evil.

 

[agedman]

Hank you are close to what I am saying. I have never told anyone not to take drugs or get off the drugs. I am saying that the drugs do not meet the prescribed manner in which we are to deal with sin.
I fully understand that some people do not want, it is not about can't, to do what it takes to deal with sin as it can be very trying, but I have no authority to tell someone that taking the drugs is ordained by God because it is not. The only thing He offers for sin is confess and forsake and that is all I can offer, other then prayer, lest I stand against Him by adding to scripture.
Also I do tell people that any behavior problem is not due to an illness, but it is due to indwelling sin. The diagnosed illness is nothing but the sin being lived out. That is what the bible teaches and that is what I teach and I make no apologies for it.

FAL,

You state, "I have never told anyone not to take drugs or get off the drugs."

Then in the next part state, "I have no authority to tell someone that taking the drugs is ordained by God because it is not."

You have clearly stated in multiple posts on this thread that taking drugs is sin. That the only cure is confessing and forsaking.

Then you post, "Also I do tell people that any behavior problem is not due to an illness, but it is due to indwelling sin. The diagnosed illness is nothing but the sin being lived out."

What doctor will you go to when you have a stroke. Stroke is not an illness it is when a blood vessel breaks (hemoragic) or a clot forms (ischemic) starving the brain of oxygen.

Please, as you are recovering by taking medications to break up the clot (for most hemoragic strokes are not recoverable) please post why confession and forsaking didn't cure you.



BTW, there are some indicators that many (if not all) the items in the original OP list come from an epilepsy form in various manifestations. Whether or not that continues to be valid will have to wait on a great deal more research.

 

[agedman]

That is not true. I am saying that there is no mental illness that is causing the behavior, but in fact what is being called a mental illness is sin being lived out and not dealt with. Yes they may act crazy, but in fact they are in rebellion not ill unless you want to say they are sin sick.
Chemical imbalance does not cause the person to do evil. We are already evil. if there was a Chemical imbalance we would do righteousness not evil as our normal mode is evil. A Chemical imbalance would make us act different then we normally act which is evil. Chemical imbalance Is an excuse to put people on drugs which mask the real problem indwelling sin instead of confessing and forsaking.

Which comes first. The evil or the chemical imbalance?

If it is evil, then any person confessing and forsaking would no longer experience mental health issues of any form and the great amount of Scriptures dealing with the issue would not be necessary. But you and I both no that is unrealistic. Our own experiences of living show a continual struggle will always exist in this body - Just a Paul states.

If the chemical imbalance is first and the lowered rational analytic and awareness mechanisms were functioning in a diminished fashion then evil most certainly can and does abound.

Most if not all ADD children and adults have or need to have extensive counsel from parents and professionals about the sin in which they become aware has ravaged them. The medication does not assuage the guilt, it has no power to dumb down the pain of conscience. The medication restores an appropriate amount of chemical to the brain so that person can come to terms with real life issues in which they have been in denial and have no cognitive awareness without the medication.

You have a most certain and for sure wrong idea of the current medications.

 

[agedman]

Here is a link with plenty of scripture, but like I said you reject scripture.
http://z13.invisionfree.com/Christian_Group/index.php?showtopic=4

I have no specific problem with the link's statements.

BUT I do think you are reading into what the person is saying and concluding what they do not intend.

Also, I have no disagreement with the Scriptures used.

 

[nodak]

freeatlast, you are quite correct that confessing and forgiveness are the only cures for sin.

Problem is, you take on yourself the defining of what is sin and what is not sin.

Reminds me of the preacher I had who chastised me roundly when he learned I was on gerd meds. He told me to forsake and repent of gluttony, eat correctly, and the gerd would go away.

Uh, no sir, it wouldn't. First place at the time I was gravely underweight as gerd was making me choke while eating and I couldn't consume the proper amount of food. My gerd is caused by a birth defect clearly visible on x-ray.

You seem to believe, as many do, that taking meds for mood disorders masks the symptoms. It does no such thing. The opposite of depressed isn't happy, it is normal. The meds for add do not hop the kids up, but calm them enough that they CAN control their own behavior.

The brain is an organ and as such can dysfunction. Many of those same brain chemicals that get out of balance are used by the body in other parts than the brain.

So by your reasoning, someone with bipolar in a serotonin storm can just repent and the diarrhea and heart attack and sleeplessness will just go away. They will stop shaking, stop thinking their thoughts like fired from a machine gun, the hunger will end, etc.

By your reasoning, someone with a clinical depression can just repent and forsake sad thoughts and the poo will once again move freely, their digestive system will function properly, their joints will cease aching, they will get their appetite back, and they won't feel so sensitive to cold.

It doesn't work that way. My cousin with bipolar is a strong Christian who tried for years to live your way.

A wise Christian physician got her on proper med (lithium) and then, when her body and brain were allowing her to think normally, sent her to her pastor to deal with any spiritual issues she might have.

I wager if someone spiked your iced tea with lsd and you drank it unknowingly, your behavior would be different than normal. You might do things you believe to be sin. And you wouldn't be able to stop yourself. Medications are like an antidote for that lsd would be. They don't hop a person up, they restore clear thinking so the person CAN be responsible for their own actions.