Medication vs 'Self" medicating

[freeatlast]

FAL,

You state, "I have never told anyone not to take drugs or get off the drugs."

Then in the next part state, "I have no authority to tell someone that taking the drugs is ordained by God because it is not."

You have clearly stated in multiple posts on this thread that taking drugs is sin. That the only cure is confessing and forsaking.

Then you post, "Also I do tell people that any behavior problem is not due to an illness, but it is due to indwelling sin. The diagnosed illness is nothing but the sin being lived out."

What doctor will you go to when you have a stroke. Stroke is not an illness it is when a blood vessel breaks (hemoragic) or a clot forms (ischemic) starving the brain of oxygen.

Please, as you are recovering by taking medications to break up the clot (for most hemoragic strokes are not recoverable) please post why confession and forsaking didn't cure you.



BTW, there are some indicators that many (if not all) the items in the original OP list come from an epilepsy form in various manifestations. Whether or not that continues to be valid will have to wait on a great deal more research.

You keep wanting to compare apples to oranges. A stroke is a medical condition and sin is not. For instance. I am saying that alcoholism is not an illness. It is the result of sin or sin run wild. You first have to sin to become hooked on the sin you started and become an alcoholic. In the case of Bi-Polar and things of that nature I am saying the same thing. The sin is present in the person and they do not deal with it through confession and forsaking and it becomes chronic sin which the Medical community falsely has diagnosed as a mental illness and prescribes drugs when God prescribes confession and forsaking the sin.
Just like for an alcoholic God does not prescribe drugs, He calls for confession and forsaking. Is it more difficult if they had not gotten into that mess, yes, but the cure is the same just more difficult. The same with claimed mental illness confess and forsake.

 

[freeatlast]

I have no specific problem with the link's statements.

BUT I do think you are reading into what the person is saying and concluding what they do not intend.

Also, I have no disagreement with the Scriptures used.

[SIZE=+0]Good! Then we agree that sin causes what the world calls mental illness, not the reverse, an prescribes drugs for, but God says we are responsible for our own sin and confession and forsaking is the only way to overcome. I am glad to see you finally accept what the Lord says about sin.[/SIZE]

 

[agedman]

A wise Christian physician got her on proper med (lithium) and then, when her body and brain were allowing her to think normally, sent her to her pastor to deal with any spiritual issues she might have.

Here is an example of what I was attempting to state.

Medication is not the whole answer and it is an unwise parent (or adult) who leaves off the last part!

Pastor, parent, professional counsel is a MUST and should never be left out of the mix. Don't think that a child doesn't have much sin to work through in earnest prayer with the Father!

I thank the Father in Heaven that some very Godly Christian counselors have been brought up to pair Scriptures with troubled souls.

When I was young, no such group existed, and preachers were generally ignorant, unschooled, or fumbling around trying to make some resolve to issues that they had no understanding.

Most of us that are closer to heaven than birth, can reflect upon, if not have lived with, or actually been through that life of one who could have used Godly professional help and even medications when they were a very young person.

I would encourage folks no matter the age to not neglect either part when help is needed.

 

[freeatlast]

freeatlast, you are quite correct that confessing and forgiveness are the only cures for sin.

Problem is, you take on yourself the defining of what is sin and what is not sin.

Reminds me of the preacher I had who chastised me roundly when he learned I was on gerd meds. He told me to forsake and repent of gluttony, eat correctly, and the gerd would go away.

Uh, no sir, it wouldn't. First place at the time I was gravely underweight as gerd was making me choke while eating and I couldn't consume the proper amount of food. My gerd is caused by a birth defect clearly visible on x-ray.

You seem to believe, as many do, that taking meds for mood disorders masks the symptoms. It does no such thing. The opposite of depressed isn't happy, it is normal. The meds for add do not hop the kids up, but calm them enough that they CAN control their own behavior.

The brain is an organ and as such can dysfunction. Many of those same brain chemicals that get out of balance are used by the body in other parts than the brain.

So by your reasoning, someone with bipolar in a serotonin storm can just repent and the diarrhea and heart attack and sleeplessness will just go away. They will stop shaking, stop thinking their thoughts like fired from a machine gun, the hunger will end, etc.

By your reasoning, someone with a clinical depression can just repent and forsake sad thoughts and the poo will once again move freely, their digestive system will function properly, their joints will cease aching, they will get their appetite back, and they won't feel so sensitive to cold.

It doesn't work that way. My cousin with bipolar is a strong Christian who tried for years to live your way.

A wise Christian physician got her on proper med (lithium) and then, when her body and brain were allowing her to think normally, sent her to her pastor to deal with any spiritual issues she might have.

I wager if someone spiked your iced tea with lsd and you drank it unknowingly, your behavior would be different than normal. You might do things you believe to be sin. And you wouldn't be able to stop yourself. Medications are like an antidote for that lsd would be. They don't hop a person up, they restore clear thinking so the person CAN be responsible for their own actions.

You also are comparing apples and oranges. Your medical condition was not related to living out bad behavior.

 

[HAMel]

By FAL..., This has nothing to do with the topic.

From what I gather the only "topic" relevant to this thread is your attempting to prove your otherwise unsubstantiated theory.

No problem though. To each his own. :wavey:

 

[freeatlast]

Here is an example of what I was attempting to state.

Medication is not the whole answer and it is an unwise parent (or adult) who leaves off the last part!

Pastor, parent, professional counsel is a MUST and should never be left out of the mix. Don't think that a child doesn't have much sin to work through in earnest prayer with the Father!

I thank the Father in Heaven that some very Godly Christian counselors have been brought up to pair Scriptures with troubled souls.

When I was young, no such group existed, and preachers were generally ignorant, unschooled, or fumbling around trying to make some resolve to issues that they had no understanding.

Most of us that are closer to heaven than birth, can reflect upon, if not have lived with, or actually been through that life of one who could have used Godly professional help and even medications when they were a very young person.

I would encourage folks no matter the age to not neglect either part when help is needed.

Then we all need to use drugs to make this easier, correct?

 

[freeatlast]

By FAL..., This has nothing to do with the topic.

From what I gather the only "topic" relevant to this thread is your attempting to prove your otherwise unsubstantiated theory.

No problem though. To each his own. :wavey:

I assme that is the way you discern, to each his own. However I prefer what the bible says.

 

[agedman]

You keep wanting to compare apples to oranges. A stroke is a medical condition and sin is not. For instance. I am saying that alcoholism is not an illness. It is the result of sin or sin run wild. You first have to sin to become hooked on the sin you started and become an alcoholic. In the case of Bi-Polar and things of that nature I am saying the same thing. The sin is present in the person and they do not deal with it through confession and forsaking and it becomes chronic sin which the Medical community falsely has diagnosed as a mental illness and prescribes drugs when God prescribes confession and forsaking the sin.
Just like for an alcoholic God does not prescribe drugs, He calls for confession and forsaking. Is it more difficult if they had not gotten into that mess, yes, but the cure is the same just more difficult. The same with claimed mental illness confess and forsake.

First, I used a stroke, for it more resembles the brains inability to deal with issues even what is real in comparison to one who has a brain (especially chemical) disorder.

The typical alcoholic has a low addictive tolerance.

Certainly it is a sin to drink to excess.

Is it a sin to be an alcoholic? NO.

The difference between alcoholic and a brain malfunction is that the alcoholic can stop buying the intoxicant and can of self talk build up some schemes of coping with the pull of the addiction.

One who has a brain malfunction does not self generate the appropriate amount of brain chemicals. No amount of self talk, prayer, confession... is going to produce the appropriate amount of brain chemicals. There is no cure.

Perhaps what has happened is you have taken some elements of other mental health issues in which the professionals have dealt with in which are most certainly sin and the results of protracted sinful living, and applied them to conditions in which it isn't necessary the whole story.

 

[freeatlast]

First, I used a stroke, for it more resembles the brains inability to deal with issues even what is real in comparison to one who has a brain (especially chemical) disorder.

The typical alcoholic has a low addictive tolerance.

Certainly it is a sin to drink to excess.

Is it a sin to be an alcoholic? NO.

The difference between alcoholic and a brain malfunction is that the alcoholic can stop buying the intoxicant and can of self talk build up some schemes of coping with the pull of the addiction.

One who has a brain malfunction does not self generate the appropriate amount of brain chemicals. No amount of self talk, prayer, confession... is going to produce the appropriate amount of brain chemicals. There is no cure.

Perhaps what has happened is you have taken some elements of other mental health issues in which the professionals have dealt with in which are most certainly sin and the results of protracted sinful living, and applied them to conditions in which it isn't necessary the whole story.

But there is no comparison. Sin is not because of a chemical imbalance. Sin is because we have a sinful heart. Drugs do not fix the problem. if they did then the person would not sin, ever. God calls for confession and forsaking, not drugs. God is teaching that sin is a spiritual issue not a medical one.

 

[agedman]

Then we all need to use drugs to make this easier, correct?

Not in the slightest.

Like I stated early in the thread. The medications generally work opposite on children and adults who enjoy a normal level of chemical balance in the brain.

For instance, for some time a DEA controlled medication called Adderall may be prescribed for the OP list. it is most certainly not a depressant, but is a stimulant an amphetamine that has a high risk of abuse.

If a normal person takes Adderall it will make them "flaky," unable to concentrate, and even hyper, and the addictive potential is strong

If one who is ADD takes Adderall, they enjoy focus, able to rationally respond using sentence structures that show thought process conceptualization to delivery, and even perceive body language in others. Though addictive, the medication does not does not seem to have the excessive pull that puts the normal brain into "lust of the stimulant."

Adderall is not a medication that I personally would recommend had I the authority, but I use it in this post to show that what you suppose medications do, may not be the result in one who has brain chemical issues.

 

[preacher4truth]

Not in the slightest.

Like I stated early in the thread. The medications generally work opposite on children and adults who enjoy a normal level of chemical balance in the brain.

For instance, for some time a DEA controlled medication called Adderall may be prescribed for the OP list. it is most certainly not a depressant, but is a stimulant an amphetamine that has a high risk of abuse.

If a normal person takes Adderall it will make them "flaky," unable to concentrate, and even hyper, and the addictive potential is strong

If one who is ADD takes Adderall, they enjoy focus, able to rationally respond using sentence structures that show thought process conceptualization to delivery, and even perceive body language in others. Though addictive, the medication does not does not seem to have the excessive pull that puts the normal brain into "lust of the stimulant."

Adderall is not a medication that I personally would recommend had I the authority, but I use it in this post to show that what you suppose medications do, may not be the result in one who has brain chemical issues.

Agreed agedman.

Without the usual nonsense, or, put the nonsense to a permanent rest, I'd like a list, given the accusation of using drugs to mask sin by freeatlast including the following since such a dogmatic stand has been taken:

1) Which specific drugs are used to mask sin.

2) Which specific sins are being masked via this usage of these prescription drugs.

3) Biblical points showing that using prescription drugs are used for the purpose of masking sins and/or are in addition an excuse.

4) Substantial proof that these are seeking an excuse to sin as has been the accusation in many a thread.

5) The naming of the the specific disorders that are claimed by said persons in order for one to get on drugs and mask their sins.

6) An answer to all those who suffer any said disorders, who use meds for help, who are the accused as using meds for the purpose of masking sin, and substantial evidence that the person accusing has empirical evidence of those who have been taken off meds via their own expertise of counsel, Biblical support &c for these maladies and are no longer in need of any meds.

7) A list of forbidden drugs for their specific maladies which are for the purpose excuse to sin, and the exact sin they are continuing in by taking these medications.

My wife, a pharmd, would be quite interested in reading the answers to this with good, solid, Biblical and documentable proof.

 

[preacher4truth]

By FAL..., This has nothing to do with the topic.

From what I gather the only "topic" relevant to this thread is your attempting to prove your otherwise unsubstantiated theory.

No problem though. To each his own. :wavey:

Exactumundo. :applause:

 

[agedman]

But there is no comparison. Sin is not because of a chemical imbalance. Sin is because we have a sinful heart. Drugs do not fix the problem. if they did then the person would not sin, ever. God calls for confession and forsaking, not drugs. God is teaching that sin is a spiritual issue not a medical one.

I totally agree!

Sin can have its final result shackling a person with substance abuse issues and that in turn can change the chemical balance of the brain which does create a problem. Sin did not "create" the problem, and medications do not cure this imbalance, but help to manage it.

That is why it is so very important that in EVERY case involving chemical imbalance, the medical and the spiritual be addressed. And as one grows in the wisdom and knowledge (including fellowship with the Father) greater and greater reliance and authority in all life decisions are submitted to Christ.

To many, as this growth in Christ takes place, they moderate the medication and eventually work on living without medication, however they are usually wise enough to have a few really good and Godly friends who will cue them if medication is needing to be revisited.

 

[freeatlast]

I totally agree!

Sin can have its final result shackling a person with substance abuse issues and that in turn can change the chemical balance of the brain which does create a problem. Sin did not "create" the problem, and medications do not cure this imbalance, but help to manage it.

That is why it is so very important that in EVERY case involving chemical imbalance, the medical and the spiritual be addressed. And as one grows in the wisdom and knowledge (including fellowship with the Father) greater and greater reliance and authority in all life decisions are submitted to Christ.

To many, as this growth in Christ takes place, they moderate the medication and eventually work on living without medication, however they are usually wise enough to have a few really good and Godly friends who will cue them if medication is needing to be revisited.

No, Sin is the total problem and God teaches that is a spiritual issue dealt with by confessing and forsaking, not drugs.

 

[agedman]

I have no specific problem with the link's statements.

BUT I do think you are reading into what the person is saying and concluding what they do not intend.

Also, I have no disagreement with the Scriptures used.

[SIZE=+0]Good! Then we agree that sin causes what the world calls mental illness, not the reverse, an prescribes drugs for, but God says we are responsible for our own sin and confession and forsaking is the only way to overcome. I am glad to see you finally accept what the Lord says about sin.[/SIZE]

No, you missed the point.

I stated that I have no particular problem with what the person stated and have no disagreement with the scriptures.

However, as YOU have extracted the information and applied it to this thread there is a problem.

For instance in the opening paragraph the writer states:

"That the problem is very real is also shown by statistics concerning mental illness. Today there are hundreds of thousands of patients in mental hospitals or who are considered to have mental illness. Many of the patients in the hospitals are suffering from some form of mental illness according to many specialists. Whether this is accurate or not, it is still evident that many lack "healing" for the mind because of the lack of "healing for the soul."​

It would seem at least the author is willing to entertain the issue where you do not.

 

[preacher4truth]

But there is no comparison. Sin is not because of a chemical imbalance. Sin is because we have a sinful heart. Drugs do not fix the problem. if they did then the person would not sin, ever. God calls for confession and forsaking, not drugs. God is teaching that sin is a spiritual issue not a medical one.

Exactly, and a chemical imbalance is not one sinning, nor are corrective meds a masking of sin. You've accused of these things, now prove it, but as of yet you cannot and refer others to read older posts that do not answer as well.

I gave you a list to answer concerning your accusations (see post 131 and don't tuck tail and find an 'excuse' not to answer), not only made here, but in other threads. Now get to answering them specifically, or put your false undocumentable accusations to a permanent rest.

Not every person on this planet has received the same journey, concerning those who are saved, and the journey of some is much more troublesome than for others, some physically, some emotionally, and some mentally. Different crosses for different folks. He came to save from sins, not maladies, whether physical or 'otherwise'.

Which reminds me, let us grow in grace (first) and in knowledge (second) as in our day and age in the church the former is more greatly needed than the latter; 2 Peter 3:18.

 

[freeatlast]

No, you missed the point.

I stated that I have no particular problem with what the person stated and have no disagreement with the scriptures.

However, as YOU have extracted the information and applied it to this thread there is a problem.

Believing God is never a problem, but changing His word as You are doing is. Confession and forsaking is the way for dealing with sin, not drugs.

 

[freeatlast]

Exactly, and a chemical imbalance is not one sinning, nor are corrective meds a masking of sin. You've accused of these things, now prove it, but as of yet you cannot and refer others to read older posts that do not answer as well.

I gave you a list to answer concerning your accusations, not only made here, but in other threads. Now get to answering them specifically, or put your false undocumentable accusations to a permanent rest.

Not every person on this planet has received the same journey, concerning those who are saved, and the journey of some is much more troublesome than for others, some physically, some emotionally, and some mentally. Different crosses for different folks. He came to save from sins, not maladies, whether physical or 'otherwise'.

Which reminds me, let us grow in grace (first) and in knowledge (second) as in our day and age in the church the former is more greatly needed than the latter; 2 Peter 3:18.

There is no scientific evidence of any chemical imbalance. That false claim has been thrust on the public so as to justify the pushing of drugs. All behavior issues are from sin and confession and forsaking is the only cure.

 

[preacher4truth]

There is no scientific evidence of any chemical imbalance. That false claim has been thrust on the public so as to justify the pushing of drugs. All behavior issues are from sin and confession and forsaking is the only cure.

Answer my questions or put your unsubstantiated accusations to a permanent rest.

You've accused MANY of masking sin by your accusations, now get to substantiating it. You've been dogmatic, now give tangible proof.

So the drugs working for my 11 year old son, correcting an imbalance, and that are working, are masking his sin, correct?

 

[preacher4truth]

Allow me to post this again for the specific reason that freeatlast answer them all. He's the dogmatic expert naming others as masking sin, let him either answer or run away with a quip of an excuse. :wavey:

Agreed agedman.

Without the usual nonsense, or, put the nonsense to a permanent rest, I'd like a list, given the accusation of using drugs to mask sin by freeatlast including the following since such a dogmatic stand has been taken:

1) Which specific drugs are used to mask sin.

2) Which specific sins are being masked via this usage of these prescription drugs.

3) Biblical points showing that using prescription drugs are used for the purpose of masking sins and/or are in addition an excuse.

4) Substantial proof that these are seeking an excuse to sin as has been the accusation in many a thread.

5) The naming of the the specific disorders that are claimed by said persons in order for one to get on drugs and mask their sins.

6) An answer to all those who suffer any said disorders, who use meds for help, who are the accused as using meds for the purpose of masking sin, and substantial evidence that the person accusing has empirical evidence of those who have been taken off meds via their own expertise of counsel, Biblical support &c for these maladies and are no longer in need of any meds.

7) A list of forbidden drugs for their specific maladies which are for the purpose excuse to sin, and the exact sin they are continuing in by taking these medications.

My wife, a pharmd, would be quite interested in reading the answers to this with good, solid, Biblical and documentable proof.