Featured No Man Can Come Unto Me, Except [John 6:65]

And I showed you that unless a man has the indwelling Holy Spirit, he is none of Christ's. A man cannot be born again until he first receives the indwelling Spirit.

I also showed you several scriptures that shows a man receives the Spirit AFTER he believes, Galatians 3:2, Ephesians 1:13, and Acts 2.

Here is another.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

This verse clearly shows Paul believed a person received the Holy Spirit AFTER (since) they believe.

You can say anything you want, you do not have scripture on your side. You do not have one verse in all scripture that says a man is born again before he believes. All scripture (and there is much) shows a man receives the Spirit and is regenerated AFTER he believes.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The scriptures say you must believe to have life. You teach the exact opposite, that you must have life to believe. Total error.

You believe what is NEVER said in scripture, and ignore what IS said in scripture.

Time will tell.

 

I agree, but through what means is the man 'made alive?" THE GOSPEL! That is the powerful life giving means. It's not some secret inward moving. It is the GOSPEL!!! The truth will set you free! Just because some CHOOSE to 'trade the clearly revealed truth in for lies' and refuse to accept and love the truth so as to be saved doesn't negate this fact.

I don't disagree with those scriptures, but what you don't seem to understand is that those people in the audience of John 6 didn't have the gospel. They weren't being invited to come yet. It hadn't been granted unto them to come to Christ YET. It is not until he is lifted up that he draws all men to himself by sending the apostles into all the world to preach the GOSPEL. At that point the secrets of the kingdom where being hidden from them in parables, THAT is why they were unable to come to Him. It had nothing to do with their innate depraved natures, as Calvinism teaches.

Question beg much? If it was God's choice to give men the ability to respond to the gospel appeal freely then would you say that? Of course you wouldn't, you would say right along with us that God is sovereign and in that sovereignty chose to give men the ability of choice.

 

What of those who he hardens but who are provoked to envy and later come to salvation? Romans 11:14

How can the harden ones (who you presume are the non-elect) eventually come to believe in Christ and be grafted back into the tree as Paul teaches in Romans 11?

 

Amy, I am glad that we are like-minded on this.

Blessings.

 

Winman, it is okay that we disagree, but I would like to clarify one thing. I did not say that God doesn't know who will believe and who will not believe. I said that we don't know. The infinite sovereign God of the universe knows all things. His finite creation (us) know only what he chooses to reveal to us. I guess that is a good thing because it makes us ever dependent on him.

Blessings.

 

It is a nonsensical view. Why would God have to harden someone if they are born with Total Inability? Is it necessary to put a blindfold on a man born completely blind? Absurd.

 

Skandelon, that is a matter or perspective. I believe that the Romans 9 passage I quoted earlier (re: God hardens whom he hardens) is using "hardens" in the form of a judicial sentence. It is looking at the final disposition of those that are hardened, not those who are in unbelief until their salvation. Explained in another way, if a person displays a hardened attitude towards God, but eventually comes to faith in Christ, then they were never really hardened. Had they been hardened they would never believe. I see this as a reasonable and normative understanding of Romans 9.

 

Winman,

Our Lord said:

Winman, I think "harden" in John 12 and Romans 9 is synonymous with "prevent." Why would God blind their eyes and harden (prevent) their hearts? So that they would not see and perceive. Why? We don't know why. The bible does not tell us the reason why God allows a person to remain in their lost condition and prevents them from understanding the truth and acting upon it. Romans 9 tells us that it has nothing to do with their deeds that God knew they would perform (whether good or bad) even before they were born. All we know is that it is God's choice and he does not tell us his reasons behind it (Rom. 9:15).

 

Good question Winman. And why would he need to speak in parables to prevent the Jews from repenting unto salvation? (ref. Mark 4; Matt 13 etc)

He is temporarily blinding the Jews so as to accomplish the cross and the redemption of the whole world. "...but the Gentiles will listen." (Acts 28:28)

 

We do know WHY! He told us that he has 'cut off' the Jews or 'sent them a spirit of stupor' so as to make room for the ingrafting of the Gentiles. And in doing so the HOPE of Paul is that the ministry to the Gentiles will provoke the Jews to envy so that they might also turn back and be saved. (Rm 11)

Who, if not the Jews, would have crucified Christ? Just as Pharaoh was hardened/blinded by God from the signs of Moses, Israel was blinded from the signs of Christ. Why? To accomplish the Passover of the Lamb.

 

You are hyper individualizing the text to draw absurd conclusions, IMO. The point of Romans 9 is summed up by Paul himself when he writes, "What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Clearly he is saying that Israel is stumbling/being cut off/being hardened, but the Gentiles are believing/being grafted in/being shown mercy. But does this mean the Jews have stumbled beyond recovery? Romans 11 addresses that question quite well. Try reading Romans 11 using the same hyper individualized hermeneutic and watch the mess it creates. If you read Romans 9-11 with the same hermeneutic that I'm proposing it all makes perfect since and there is no confusion whatsoever.

 

"I hold to Total Depravity. But I also hold that in the midst of the Total Depravity of man God has the power and does reach into man's heart and offers him grace while giving him room to make a decision to come to Him or reject Him [John 1:12]. Not because God needs man to do this but because God wants it done this way."

 

Of course it is. But we are debating the means by which he gives life. I, along with Paul, say the power is in the gospel, which itself is a work of the Holy Spirit. You seem to think its in some extra inward working of the Spirit.

John 6:63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Great verse to prove my point. The VERY WORDS (GOSPEL) are spirit and life. You seem to think the words are powerless unless the Spirit does some addition work, but this verse clearly calls his very words both spirit and life.

Not so. They could no more see the Gospel than Pharaoh could see the signs and wonders of God. They were being given a 'spirit of stupor.' Why do you think Mark 4 tells us that Jesus spoke in parables lest they repent? Explain how that would be possible for an unregenerate reprobate?

Question begging is a fallacy when one assumes the point up for debate. It is the most commonly used fallacy in all of debate.

 

mandym,

Thank you for your explanation.

Blessings!

 

Skandelon,

I think I will let my explanation rest as is. I completely agree with you that if I read Romans 9-11 with the hermeneutic you are proposing that I would see it your way. However, I don't agree with that hermeneutic otherwise I would already see it your way! Actually that is kind of funny. There would be no theological disagreements if we all shared the same hermeneutic. We have just discovered the root cause and the impossible solution at the same time! But since our hermeneutic is different we cannot help but arrive at different conclusions. I will compliment you on being consistent to your rule of interpretation. It is refreshing to see such consistency even if I do disagree with it.

Blessings!

 

Actually, my argument is that you (Calvinists) have to switch your hermeneutic from hyper individualized in Romans 9 to the Corporate view in Romans 11, but we are consistent throughout. That was my point.

 

Skandelon,

I understand your point. Truly, I do. I disagree with your assessment (hyper-individualized) and your recommendation.

Blessings!

 

My understanding.

2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

That is what God is doing, however does the word state he is doing that all at one time? I do not believe so.

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

If God were reconciling the whole world unto himself would he not visited and taken all of them for his name?

OldRegular, Because of a post you made concerning John Owen and his commentary on Hebrews I did a Google search and read some from chapter 2 of Hebrews. All I can say is that man had a lot of time on hand to write all that. I am going to post something on chapter 2 relative to above and whoever would like can compare to John Owen, if you have a lot of time and just believe what you will.

Hebrews 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. ---The world to come I believe to be none other than the kingdom of God, the gospel Jesus was the first to begin to speak about. The whereof we speak is just the continuation of, first by the Lord then they who heard them then the writers of Hebrews speaking of the same great salvation that comes with the gospel of the kingdom of God. Born again.
John Owen does not see whereof we speak in this manner and takes half a page or so to say so.

The world to come (Lit. the inhabited earth) will not be subject to the angels. Is there an implication there that this present world or some world is or was subject to angels? Who will it be subject to?

Hebrews 2:6-8 sans the last sentence of verse 8 implies it will be subject to man, but what man, men. The last sentence states, "But now we see not yet all things put under him." This is speaking of man in the image of the first man Adam. The first man Adam was not created equipped to rule this world nor the world to come, after all he was made a little lower than the angels and the implication is they are not so equipped to do either. But there is Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, made a little lower than the angels, born as a man, the last Adam, died as a man, and his Father resurrected him as a man with power with a name more excellent than the angels and man can be born again just like him. This began with the passover lamb dying for man, with man being unleavened by Christ the first feast of the Lord. Now God is taking out of the nations a people for his name. The firstfruits of the Spirit to reign with Christ in the world to come. Now is a day of salvation. There will be others. God is electing. The ones he elects become believers. They are given the Spirit which at the appearing of Christ, (the feast of trumpets) will resurrect/change them from being mortal, corruptible beings to immortal, incorruptible beings. conformed to the image of the Son of God and they will be born into/inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus who is presently the firstborn from the dead will then be the firstborn of many brethren.

Paul was going down the road to Damascus in ignorant unbelief when God through Jesus called him to belief and gave him the Spirit of God because he was a sheep of the shepherd, Jesus.

Gal. 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

From define of at Dictionary.com
Synonyms
concerning
regarding
showing
about
from
like

Which of those synonyms would you replace of with in Gal. 3:2

I will go with, concerning, regarding, about, because the faith is what Jesus did that allowed the Holy Spirit of God to be given to you.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.