No Man Can Come Unto Me, Except [John 6:65]

[Winman]

No Winman. I just got through posting in response to you: faith is an essential aspect of salvation.

And I showed you that unless a man has the indwelling Holy Spirit, he is none of Christ's. A man cannot be born again until he first receives the indwelling Spirit.

I also showed you several scriptures that shows a man receives the Spirit AFTER he believes, Galatians 3:2, Ephesians 1:13, and Acts 2.

Here is another.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

This verse clearly shows Paul believed a person received the Holy Spirit AFTER (since) they believe.

You can say anything you want, you do not have scripture on your side. You do not have one verse in all scripture that says a man is born again before he believes. All scripture (and there is much) shows a man receives the Spirit and is regenerated AFTER he believes.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The scriptures say you must believe to have life. You teach the exact opposite, that you must have life to believe. Total error.

You believe what is NEVER said in scripture, and ignore what IS said in scripture.

Time will tell.

 

[Skandelon]

The Holy Spirit makes a change in the person who is “dead in tresspass and sin” and then His appeal receives a response.

I agree, but through what means is the man 'made alive?" THE GOSPEL! That is the powerful life giving means. It's not some secret inward moving. It is the GOSPEL!!! The truth will set you free! Just because some CHOOSE to 'trade the clearly revealed truth in for lies' and refuse to accept and love the truth so as to be saved doesn't negate this fact.

Because Scripture tells me so and I presented that Scripture in the OP. I am just going by what Jesus Christ said. Frankly I cannot find it in myself to deny what He so clearly states.

I don't disagree with those scriptures, but what you don't seem to understand is that those people in the audience of John 6 didn't have the gospel. They weren't being invited to come yet. It hadn't been granted unto them to come to Christ YET. It is not until he is lifted up that he draws all men to himself by sending the apostles into all the world to preach the GOSPEL. At that point the secrets of the kingdom where being hidden from them in parables, THAT is why they were unable to come to Him. It had nothing to do with their innate depraved natures, as Calvinism teaches.

The Gospel is the Power of God yet you would make that power dependent on the will of man who is in bondage to sin.

Question beg much? If it was God's choice to give men the ability to respond to the gospel appeal freely then would you say that? Of course you wouldn't, you would say right along with us that God is sovereign and in that sovereignty chose to give men the ability of choice.

 

[Skandelon]

This is what I believe as well. We don't know all the why's of what God does, but scripture is clear that He hardens some and He saves some. God is not obligated to tell us all of His secret things.

What of those who he hardens but who are provoked to envy and later come to salvation? Romans 11:14

How can the harden ones (who you presume are the non-elect) eventually come to believe in Christ and be grafted back into the tree as Paul teaches in Romans 11?

 

[MorseOp]

This is what I believe as well. We don't know all the why's of what God does, but scripture is clear that He hardens some and He saves some. God is not obligated to tell us all of His secret things.

Amy, I am glad that we are like-minded on this.

Blessings.

 

[MorseOp]

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

This verse directly tells us that Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe not. If Jesus knew from the beginning who would not believe, he would also know who believes by simple process of elimination.

So, there you are, you are directly told in scripture that God knows who will believe and who will not.

Winman, it is okay that we disagree, but I would like to clarify one thing. I did not say that God doesn't know who will believe and who will not believe. I said that we don't know. The infinite sovereign God of the universe knows all things. His finite creation (us) know only what he chooses to reveal to us. I guess that is a good thing because it makes us ever dependent on him.

Blessings.

 

[Winman]

Amy, I am glad that we are like-minded on this.

Blessings.

It is a nonsensical view. Why would God have to harden someone if they are born with Total Inability? Is it necessary to put a blindfold on a man born completely blind? Absurd.

 

[MorseOp]

What of those who he hardens but who are provoked to envy and later come to salvation? Romans 11:14

How can the harden ones (who you presume are the non-elect) eventually come to believe in Christ and be grafted back into the tree as Paul teaches in Romans 11?

Skandelon, that is a matter or perspective. I believe that the Romans 9 passage I quoted earlier (re: God hardens whom he hardens) is using "hardens" in the form of a judicial sentence. It is looking at the final disposition of those that are hardened, not those who are in unbelief until their salvation. Explained in another way, if a person displays a hardened attitude towards God, but eventually comes to faith in Christ, then they were never really hardened. Had they been hardened they would never believe. I see this as a reasonable and normative understanding of Romans 9.

 

[MorseOp]

It is a nonsensical view. Why would God have to harden someone if they are born with Total Inability? Is it necessary to put a blindfold on a man born completely blind? Absurd.

Winman,

Our Lord said:

John 12:38-40 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?" 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."

Winman, I think "harden" in John 12 and Romans 9 is synonymous with "prevent." Why would God blind their eyes and harden (prevent) their hearts? So that they would not see and perceive. Why? We don't know why. The bible does not tell us the reason why God allows a person to remain in their lost condition and prevents them from understanding the truth and acting upon it. Romans 9 tells us that it has nothing to do with their deeds that God knew they would perform (whether good or bad) even before they were born. All we know is that it is God's choice and he does not tell us his reasons behind it (Rom. 9:15).

 

[Skandelon]

It is a nonsensical view. Why would God have to harden someone if they are born with Total Inability? Is it necessary to put a blindfold on a man born completely blind? Absurd.

Good question Winman. And why would he need to speak in parables to prevent the Jews from repenting unto salvation? (ref. Mark 4; Matt 13 etc)

He is temporarily blinding the Jews so as to accomplish the cross and the redemption of the whole world. "...but the Gentiles will listen." (Acts 28:28)

 

[Skandelon]

Winman, I think "harden" in John 12 and Romans 9 is synonymous with "prevent." Why would God blind their eyes and harden (prevent) their hearts? So that they would not see and perceive. Why? We don't know why. The bible does not tell us the reason why God allows a person to remain in their lost condition and prevents them from understanding the truth and acting upon it. Romans 9 tells us that it has nothing to do with their deeds that God knew they would perform (whether good or bad) even before they were born. All we know is that it is God's choice and he does not tell us his reasons behind it (Rom. 9:15).

We do know WHY! He told us that he has 'cut off' the Jews or 'sent them a spirit of stupor' so as to make room for the ingrafting of the Gentiles. And in doing so the HOPE of Paul is that the ministry to the Gentiles will provoke the Jews to envy so that they might also turn back and be saved. (Rm 11)

Who, if not the Jews, would have crucified Christ? Just as Pharaoh was hardened/blinded by God from the signs of Moses, Israel was blinded from the signs of Christ. Why? To accomplish the Passover of the Lamb.

 

[OldRegular]

I agree, but through what means is the man 'made alive?" THE GOSPEL! That is the powerful life giving means. It's not some secret inward moving. It is the GOSPEL!!! The truth will set you free! Just because some CHOOSE to 'trade the clearly revealed truth in for lies' and refuse to accept and love the truth so as to be saved doesn't negate this fact.

No! It is the Holy Spirit that gives life!

John 3:3,6-8
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 6:63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

I don't disagree with those scriptures, but what you don't seem to understand is that those people in the audience of John 6 didn't have the gospel. They weren't being invited to come yet. It hadn't been granted unto them to come to Christ YET. It is not until he is lifted up that he draws all men to himself by sending the apostles into all the world to preach the GOSPEL. At that point the secrets of the kingdom where being hidden from them in parables, THAT is why they were unable to come to Him. It had nothing to do with their innate depraved natures, as Calvinism teaches.

They did have the Gospel. What was Jesus Christ doing, what was He preaching? Mark writes:

Mark 1:1, 14, 15
1. The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
14. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Question beg much?

?????????

If it was God's choice to give men the ability to respond to the gospel appeal freely then would you say that? Of course you wouldn't, you would say right along with us that God is sovereign and in that sovereignty chose to give men the ability of choice.

He gave them the ability to choose. It is called regeneration or the New Birth. That New Birth frees the individual from bondage to sin!

 

[Skandelon]

Skandelon, that is a matter or perspective. I believe that the Romans 9 passage I quoted earlier (re: God hardens whom he hardens) is using "hardens" in the form of a judicial sentence. It is looking at the final disposition of those that are hardened, not those who are in unbelief until their salvation. Explained in another way, if a person displays a hardened attitude towards God, but eventually comes to faith in Christ, then they were never really hardened. Had they been hardened they would never believe. I see this as a reasonable and normative understanding of Romans 9.

You are hyper individualizing the text to draw absurd conclusions, IMO. The point of Romans 9 is summed up by Paul himself when he writes, "What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Clearly he is saying that Israel is stumbling/being cut off/being hardened, but the Gentiles are believing/being grafted in/being shown mercy. But does this mean the Jews have stumbled beyond recovery? Romans 11 addresses that question quite well. Try reading Romans 11 using the same hyper individualized hermeneutic and watch the mess it creates. If you read Romans 9-11 with the same hermeneutic that I'm proposing it all makes perfect since and there is no confusion whatsoever.

 

[mandym]

I apologize. That's the way it appeared to me. Can you offer me a clarification so that I understand correctly?

"I hold to Total Depravity. But I also hold that in the midst of the Total Depravity of man God has the power and does reach into man's heart and offers him grace while giving him room to make a decision to come to Him or reject Him [John 1:12]. Not because God needs man to do this but because God wants it done this way."

 

[Skandelon]

No! It is the Holy Spirit that gives life!

Of course it is. But we are debating the means by which he gives life. I, along with Paul, say the power is in the gospel, which itself is a work of the Holy Spirit. You seem to think its in some extra inward working of the Spirit.

John 6:63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Great verse to prove my point. The VERY WORDS (GOSPEL) are spirit and life. You seem to think the words are powerless unless the Spirit does some addition work, but this verse clearly calls his very words both spirit and life.

They did have the Gospel. What was Jesus Christ doing, what was He preaching?

Not so. They could no more see the Gospel than Pharaoh could see the signs and wonders of God. They were being given a 'spirit of stupor.' Why do you think Mark 4 tells us that Jesus spoke in parables lest they repent? Explain how that would be possible for an unregenerate reprobate?

?????????

Question begging is a fallacy when one assumes the point up for debate. It is the most commonly used fallacy in all of debate.

 

[MorseOp]

"I hold to Total Depravity. But I also hold that in the midst of the Total Depravity of man God has the power and does reach into man's heart and offers him grace while giving him room to make a decision to come to Him or reject Him [John 1:12]. Not because God needs man to do this but because God wants it done this way."

mandym,

Thank you for your explanation.

Blessings!

 

[MorseOp]

You are hyper individualizing the text to draw absurd conclusions, IMO. The point of Romans 9 is summed up by Paul himself when he writes, "What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Clearly he is saying that Israel is stumbling/being cut off/being hardened, but the Gentiles are believing/being grafted in/being shown mercy. But does this mean the Jews have stumbled beyond recovery? Romans 11 addresses that question quite well. Try reading Romans 11 using the same hyper individualized hermeneutic and watch the mess it creates. If you read Romans 9-11 with the same hermeneutic that I'm proposing it all makes perfect since and there is no confusion whatsoever.

Skandelon,

I think I will let my explanation rest as is. I completely agree with you that if I read Romans 9-11 with the hermeneutic you are proposing that I would see it your way. However, I don't agree with that hermeneutic otherwise I would already see it your way! Actually that is kind of funny. There would be no theological disagreements if we all shared the same hermeneutic. We have just discovered the root cause and the impossible solution at the same time! But since our hermeneutic is different we cannot help but arrive at different conclusions. I will compliment you on being consistent to your rule of interpretation. It is refreshing to see such consistency even if I do disagree with it.

Blessings!

 

[Skandelon]

Skandelon,

I think I will let my explanation rest as is. I completely agree with you that if I read Romans 9-11 with the hermeneutic you are proposing that I would see it your way. However, I don't agree with that hermeneutic otherwise I would already see it your way! Actually that is kind of funny. There would be no theological disagreements if we all shared the same hermeneutic. We have just discovered the root cause and the impossible solution at the same time! But since our hermeneutic is different we cannot help but arrive at different conclusions. I will compliment you on being consistent to your rule of interpretation. It is refreshing to see such consistency even if I do disagree with it.

Blessings!

Actually, my argument is that you (Calvinists) have to switch your hermeneutic from hyper individualized in Romans 9 to the Corporate view in Romans 11, but we are consistent throughout. That was my point.

 

[MorseOp]

Actually, my argument is that you (Calvinists) have to switch your hermeneutic from hyper individualized in Romans 9 to the Corporate view in Romans 11, but we are consistent throughout. That was my point.

Skandelon,

I understand your point. Truly, I do. I disagree with your assessment (hyper-individualized) and your recommendation.

Blessings!

 

[OldRegular]

Of course it is. But we are debating the means by which he gives life. I, along with Paul, say the power is in the gospel, which itself is a work of the Holy Spirit. You seem to think its in some extra inward working of the Spirit.

I didn't say it was an "extra inward working of the Spirit" Jesus Christ did and I will repeat it!

John 3:3, 6-8
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 6:63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Great verse to prove my point. The VERY WORDS (GOSPEL) are spirit and life. You seem to think the words are powerless unless the Spirit does some addition work, but this verse clearly calls his very words both spirit and life.

You can't have it both ways. Please note what you said earlier:

Posted earlier by Skandelon
I don't disagree with those scriptures, but what you don't seem to understand is that those people in the audience of John 6 didn't have the gospel. They weren't being invited to come yet. It hadn't been granted unto them to come to Christ YET. It is not until he is lifted up that he draws all men to himself by sending the apostles into all the world to preach the GOSPEL. At that point the secrets of the kingdom where being hidden from them in parables, THAT is why they were unable to come to Him.

Now if the above were true why is it said in John 6:64:

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Not so. They could no more see the Gospel than Pharaoh could see the signs and wonders of God. They were being given a 'spirit of stupor.' Why do you think Mark 4 tells us that Jesus spoke in parables lest they repent? Explain how that would be possible for an unregenerate reprobate?

Now where did the 11 Apostles come from? Where did the five hundred that were witnesses of the resurrection come from? And all at once!

You appear to be going in circles. In discussing John 6:63 above you say:

"The VERY WORDS (GOSPEL) are spirit and life."​

Yet in the above quote you say:

"They could no more see the Gospel than Pharaoh could see the signs and wonders of God."​

Question begging is a fallacy when one assumes the point up for debate. It is the most commonly used fallacy in all of debate.

Yes! I have noticed this used quite often, however, I believe that people reading something into text that is not there is just as common. Perhaps they are the same thing. I suppose they could be, depending! Are you denying that you believe that salvation is dependent on the will of man who is in bondage to sin. That is all I said:

The Gospel is the Power of God yet you would make that power dependent on the will of man who is in bondage to sin.

 

[percho]

My understanding.

2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

That is what God is doing, however does the word state he is doing that all at one time? I do not believe so.

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

If God were reconciling the whole world unto himself would he not visited and taken all of them for his name?

OldRegular, Because of a post you made concerning John Owen and his commentary on Hebrews I did a Google search and read some from chapter 2 of Hebrews. All I can say is that man had a lot of time on hand to write all that. I am going to post something on chapter 2 relative to above and whoever would like can compare to John Owen, if you have a lot of time and just believe what you will.

Hebrews 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. ---The world to come I believe to be none other than the kingdom of God, the gospel Jesus was the first to begin to speak about. The whereof we speak is just the continuation of, first by the Lord then they who heard them then the writers of Hebrews speaking of the same great salvation that comes with the gospel of the kingdom of God. Born again.
John Owen does not see whereof we speak in this manner and takes half a page or so to say so.

The world to come (Lit. the inhabited earth) will not be subject to the angels. Is there an implication there that this present world or some world is or was subject to angels? Who will it be subject to?

Hebrews 2:6-8 sans the last sentence of verse 8 implies it will be subject to man, but what man, men. The last sentence states, "But now we see not yet all things put under him." This is speaking of man in the image of the first man Adam. The first man Adam was not created equipped to rule this world nor the world to come, after all he was made a little lower than the angels and the implication is they are not so equipped to do either. But there is Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, made a little lower than the angels, born as a man, the last Adam, died as a man, and his Father resurrected him as a man with power with a name more excellent than the angels and man can be born again just like him. This began with the passover lamb dying for man, with man being unleavened by Christ the first feast of the Lord. Now God is taking out of the nations a people for his name. The firstfruits of the Spirit to reign with Christ in the world to come. Now is a day of salvation. There will be others. God is electing. The ones he elects become believers. They are given the Spirit which at the appearing of Christ, (the feast of trumpets) will resurrect/change them from being mortal, corruptible beings to immortal, incorruptible beings. conformed to the image of the Son of God and they will be born into/inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus who is presently the firstborn from the dead will then be the firstborn of many brethren.

Paul was going down the road to Damascus in ignorant unbelief when God through Jesus called him to belief and gave him the Spirit of God because he was a sheep of the shepherd, Jesus.

Gal. 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

From define of at Dictionary.com
Synonyms
concerning
regarding
showing
about
from
like

Which of those synonyms would you replace of with in Gal. 3:2

I will go with, concerning, regarding, about, because the faith is what Jesus did that allowed the Holy Spirit of God to be given to you.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.