Featured World vs. Elect

Who are the sheep?
1. Jews
2. Gentiles/those of "another" fold
3. Those that hear the Shepherds voice and follow Him.

Christ died for the sheep.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.


So did Christ die for those that will not hear His voice and follow Him? Did He die for those that do not know Him?
Those that do not hear Him or know Him are not sheep.

 

Right on :thumbs:

 

Yes, Christ died once for all and tasted death for every man. You are taking figurative language and making it literal while dismissing the literal.

The converse of a true statement is not automatically true. You are taking christ dying for the sheep as equal to Christ did not die for anyone but. The text does not say or even imply this, it is faulty reasoning and poor hermeneutics.

This reasoning is similar to being told Jesus gave everyone on the BB a new Ford and coming to the conclusion only people on the BB own Fords, and He has never given anyone else a new Ford.

 

The attack on truth continues unabated. Does the offer of reconciliation actually reconcile anyone? Nope. So this absurdity is posted as a strawman. When are we made alive? When God sovereignty places us spiritually in Christ. So only "in Christ" are we reconciled by the blood of Jesus. God is in Christ reconciling the world.

The systematic obfuscation of truth by Calvinism is amazing to behold.

Elect refers to those chosen out of the world of fallen mankind, and world refers to fallen mankind. The Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world, one person at a time.

The sheep refers to fallen mankind and my sheep refers to the elect. Again and again Calvinism misrepresents scripture to pour their mistaken doctrine into the text. Now exactly how does John read, did Jesus say He died for "my" sheep or does it read He died for "the" sheep? John 10:11 reads, " I am the good shepherd, the good shepherd lays down his life for "the" sheep. The world, fallen mankind, are like sheep without a shepherd, but the elect belong to the good shepherd. This is not rocket science.

 

Where does scripture ever say that the sheep refers to fallen mankind? Jesus is the shepherd of fallen mankind? Really???

 

Amy.G, please refer to scripture. Can you read? Did I say the good Shepherd died for fallen mankind? Yes. Did I say the good Shepherd is the shepherd of the elect? Yes.

The sheep refers to fallen mankind and my sheep refers to the elect. Again and again Calvinism misrepresents scripture to pour their mistaken doctrine into the text. Now exactly how does John read, did Jesus say He died for "my" sheep or does it read He died for "the" sheep? John 10:11 reads, " I am the good shepherd, the good shepherd lays down his life for "the" sheep. The world, fallen mankind, are like sheep without a shepherd, but the elect belong to the good shepherd. This is not rocket science.

 

If they weren't fallen, why did Christ die for them? Please don't tell me you believe now the elect are eternally saved like the PB's!

 

Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding of reconciled is where as in this verse, "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear." God will not even hear you because you are a sinner, Jesus by dying for that sin allows you to come before God and he will hear. It is what allows one to come to the throne of grace.

BTW a great couple of post.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

Yes He died for His Sheep, no question.
He ALSO died for all of mankind (the whole world) and scripture tells us this as well.

Just as scripture states Jesus lays down His life for His friends but it also states that while we were STILL sinners Christ died for us. The statement here illustrates that we were not Christ's friends when He laid down His life.
or

Note that we had no relationship with God when He sent Christ to die.. Yet Christ states, I lay down my life for my friends.

What we see is that both reveal two facets of the atonement.
1. Extent - to whom was it made for? (the whole world)
2. Intent - to whom is it applied? (only believers - the Elect)

This, again, goes back to the OT Sacrifice of Atonement. In order for work of Christ to be accepted it had to be done in accordance with OT law so it would be a perfect sacrifice. Note the no where in scripture does it EVER state Christ died ONLY for the elect, His sheep, the church.. whatever. He DID die for them and their sin but not their sins only but the sins of the whole world, just as the Atonement was made for ALL of Israel but not all of Israel was saved. (1 John 2:2)

An interesting thing to note is how John uses this term, every time he uses it.

Let's look at the word 'whole world' here with another section 1John in chapter 5:

Let us also look at another of Johns writings regarding 'whole world':

So the 'whole world' in under Satan's sway and is deceived by him. Let's look at another:

Here we see the 'whole world' will be gather together to battle AGAINST God.
John consistently uses the term, 'whole world', every time he uses it to refer to a lost, godless, sin-filled mankind who is under the power of and spiritually in line with Satan.

An interesting note that doesn't really deal with the discussion is that in the OT, Sheep died for the shepard and/or others - Now the Shepard will die for the sheep.

 

I believe sheep are the ones called. Until called you are in unbelief and believe not.

Paul by his own words was ignorant in unbelief until Jesus called him. When Jesus called him Paul was moved from unbelief unto belief, he was reconciled, he was justified, he was imputed with the righteousness of God, and he received all of this by the faith of Jesus the Christ, per the KJV.

I am not KJVO but I do believe them to be correct concerning the faith Of Jesus.

It was the death of Jesus that removed one, called by God, from being under the law, the schoolmaster, that is being subject to the eternal wages of sin.

In Gal. 3:25 that is called the faith that came.

 

This is true on one side. But this can only happen through the work of Christ which must be received in order to remove the enmity between us and God. God is only reconciled toward man through Christ and will not hear anyone except they come through the means provided by His grace - Jesus.
Thus Pauls statement in 2 Cor 5

From the Noted Greek Scholar - A.T. Robertson

This is the means through which God is 'reconciling the world' and not imparting their trespasses against them.

This is illustrated effectively in Rom 3:25 whereby it states the propitiation is applied through or by 'faith'.

 

I agree and understand God in Christ is reconciling the world unto himself, however in the context of the writings of Paul and here in 2C5:20 is this statement being made to the world or is this statement being made to the ones God is calling out of the world as a people for his name?

Is this letter written to the ones who have been called or is it written to the world as a calling?

 

Paul letters were written to believers to go out with this message to the lost world. No one seeks God so we go out and seek them. His letters was written to believers to continue to do what Paul was doing in his life spreading the Gospel. God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth so go out and tell them.

 

The problem with these statements is that they completely miss one aspect of the atonement. There was a dual-aspect to the atoning work of the High Priest in Israel.

In the economy of Old Testament Israel, and the economy of all Scripture, in addition to covering the sins of the faithful Israelites, the atonement also purified the land. That's right! In God's economy the sin actually polluted the land itself, and the land had to be purified.

So, when the High Priest made atonement for "all Israel" the land itself is in view--as are the faithful Israelites. In any event, in no case did the High Priest make any type of atonement for the people of any other nation. Therefore, the atonement in Israel was indeed limited.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Truly this is an alarming statement. This statement tells us you think man plays the key role in his own salvation. If making amends is only done through repentance and faith and repentance and faith is making amends, then repentance and faith is--ipso facto--a "work" performed by man.

You have shown great disdain for the "P" label in the past. Unfortunately, by your own words, the label fits.

The Archangel

 

Yes it has to be ....

15 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Except ye be......anything..[fill in the blank]...it comes out as a work of man.

 

Winman;

.

If I post in error and get scriptural correction,I would welcome it.You do not offer correction, but error on top of error...so it is to be opposed
:thumbsup:

I did not mock anything , I just pointed out your error- by saying this in post 77


If God has done all He can do...and a man is not saved yet.....he has no hope.

That is not mocking...it is speaking directly to your error

You did not show that. It does not say He did everything He could to save, again the problem of you not correctly reading and understanding the texts is the problem

You repeat your error here.....

,
God does not ....try...anything. God does exactly what He wants to do.You keep describing the biblical God as if He were a fallible weak man...this is tragic::

All men reject God.....that is why there is election and the effectual call to salvation
:wavey:

 

here is AW Pink on world;

Many people suppose they already know the simple meaning of John 3:16, and therefore they conclude that no diligent study is required of them to discover the precise teaching of this verse. Needless to say, such an attitude shuts out any further light which they otherwise might obtain on the passage. Yet, if anyone will take a Concordance and read carefully the various passages in which the term "world" (as a translation of "kosmos") occurs, he will quickly perceive that to ascertain the precise meaning of, the word "world" in any given passage is not nearly so easy as is popularly supposed. The word "kosmos," and its English equivalent "world," is not used with a uniform significance in the New Testament. Very far from it. It is used in quite a number of different ways. Below we will refer to a few passages where this term occurs, suggesting a tentative definition in each case:


"Kosmos" is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17:24 - "God that made the world and all things therein seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth."

"Kosmos" is used of the earth: John 13:1; Ephesians 1:4, etc., etc.- "When Jesus knew that his hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world He loved them unto the end." "Depart out of this world" signifies, leave this earth. "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." This expression signifies, before the earth was founded—compare Job 38:4 etc.

"Kosmos" is used of the world-system: John 12:31 etc. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out"— compare Matthew 4:8 and 1 John 5:19, R. V.

"Kosmos" is used of the whole human race: Romans 3:19, etc.—"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

"Kosmos" is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Romans 3:6 "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you." Believers do not "hate" Christ, so that "the world" here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ. "God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world." Here is another passage where "the world" cannot mean "you, me, and everybody," for believers will not be "judged" by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of unbelievers which is in view.

"Kosmos" is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews: Romans 11:12 etc. "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel’s) fulness." Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, "the world" cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!

"Kosmos" is used of believers only: John 1:29; 3:16, 17; 6:33; 12:47; 1 Corinthians 4:9; 2 Corinthians 5:19. We leave our readers to turn to these passages, asking them to note, carefully, exactly what is said and predicated of "the world" in each place.

Thus it will be seen that "kosmos" has at least seven clearly defined different meanings in the New Testament. It may be asked, Has then God used a word thus to confuse and confound those who read the Scriptures? We answer, No! nor has He written His Word for lazy people who are too dilatory, or too busy with the things of this world, or, like Martha, so much occupied with "serving," they have no time and no heart to "search" and "study" Holy Writ! Should it be asked further, But how is a searcher of the Scriptures to know which of the above meanings the term "world" has in any given passage? The answer is: This may be ascertained by a careful study of the context, by diligently noting what is predicated of "the world" in each passage, and by prayer fully consulting other parallel passages to the one being studied. The principal subject of John 3:16 is Christ as the Gift of God. The first clause tells us what moved God to "give" His only begotten Son, and that was His great "love;" the second clause informs us for whom God "gave" His Son, and that is for, "whosoever (or, better, ‘every one’) believeth;" while the last clause makes known why God "gave" His Son (His purpose), and that is, that everyone that believeth "should not perish but have everlasting life." That "the world" in John 3:16 refers to the world of believers (God’s elect), in contradistinction from "the world of the ungodly" (2 Pet. 2:5), is established, unequivocally established, by a comparison of the other passages which speak of God’s "love." "God commendeth His love toward US"—the saints, Romans 5:8. "Whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth"—every son, Hebrews 12:6. "We love Him, because He first loved US"—believers, 1 John 4:19. The wicked God "pities" (see Matt. 18:33). Unto the unthankful and evil God is "kind" (see Luke 6:35). The vessels of wrath He endures "with much long-suffering" (see Rom. 9:22). But "His own" God "loves"!!

 

AW Pink was a fine scholar but he is all wet on this one. He is doing the very thing he chides others not to.