Whose Son is YHVH, the Christ?

[The Biblicist]

What do you mean, “If all there is of the Godhead”?
God came as a man, Jesus; Jesus was with God in the beginning. Jesus existed with God in the beginning.

Here are your own words in post #105 and I quote:

I know what I believe as for God creating Jesus, His visible being, His Word, then all creation created by Jesus and for Jesus.
However, I also believe that the Holy Spirit is Jesus. I believe Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

1. You said "God creating Jesus, His visible being, His Word, THEN all creation created by Jesus"

I ask you again. How can God and Jesus be the same if as you say God created Jesus and then Jesus created everything else. Read your own words, you said it, I didn't. If the Father and Jesus are the same then How Can Father create Himself BEFORE creation????

You do not understand, THE SCRIPTURES us the words ‘through’, ‘from’, and ‘by’ interchangeably. I will discuss this more with you later when I can get back on and have the time.

Those terms do not mean "is" and that is why you were quoting those scriptures with those prepositions to prove that the Father IS Jesus and Jesus IS the Holy Spirit. Those prepositions are not interchangable nor can they mean "IS"!

 

[DHK]

God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the same.

There are three and they are the same.

You just quoted scripture that says I am the beginning and the ending, yet you turn around and say he has no beginning and no ending.

You act as if you are explaining something when you are not.

You are one confused person. You say one thing on this forum, and an entirely different thing on your own website. Are you an imposter?
Here is what you say on your own website:

Through Jesus we have access to the Father by one Spirit. We have God and Jesus’ love in us. God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. God poured out the Holy Spirit on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior. Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
The Holy Spirit will teach us and remind us of Jesus’ words. We have the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
We have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood.

Moriah, from your own website the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, are not the same!!

1. Jesus is one person, as you say. It is through Jesus we have access to the Father.

2. The Father is another person, as you say. It is through Jesus we have access to the Father. Note the differentiation between these two persons. Even now Jesus sits on the right hand of the throne of God. Remember the stoning of Stephen. Jesus stood when Stephen was stoned.

The Holy Spirit is another person, as you say. "God poured out the Holy Spirit on us. He is another person, distinct from the Father and the Son, and you have differentiated all three on your website.

They are not all the same! As you have pointed out they all have different functions. They all are separate from one another. They are all "persons." And yet we know that there is one God. How do you account for what is written here, and what you are saying to others on the board. Here you have an orthodox belief in the trinity expressed. To others, on this board, you are expressing unbelief in the trinity, and are espousing heresy!
Which person are you?
Clarify yourself.
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

 

[Yeshua1]

God the Son was with the father, as was the Holy Spirit...

The Son became Jesus when he incarnated, and will now be forever the God/Man Yeshua!

meant to say here that the Son became flesh and that he than dwelt among us, as the Logos took on sinless humanity and became jesus!

 

[Moriah]

Here are your own words in post #105 and I quote:

I know what I believe as for God creating Jesus, His visible being, His Word, then all creation created by Jesus and for Jesus.
However, I also believe that the Holy Spirit is Jesus. I believe Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

1. You said "God creating Jesus, His visible being, His Word, THEN all creation created by Jesus"

Jesus is the Word of God. God spoke and Jesus appeared. When someone speaks, words are created. The Bible says Jesus was the firstborn over all creation.

I ask you again. How can God and Jesus be the same if as you say God created Jesus and then Jesus created everything else. Read your own words, you said it, I didn't. If the Father and Jesus are the same then How Can Father create Himself BEFORE creation????

Jesus is the Word of God. God spoke.

Those terms do not mean "is" and that is why you were quoting those scriptures with those prepositions to prove that the Father IS Jesus and Jesus IS the Holy Spirit. Those prepositions are not interchangable nor can they mean "IS"!

You just maligned what we were talking about, when I said ‘through’, ‘from’, and ‘by’ were used interchangeably in the scriptures, BUT THEN you start talking about when I say ‘is’.

Stop twisting things when we discuss.

 

[Moriah]

You are one confused person. You say one thing on this forum, and an entirely different thing on your own website. Are you an imposter?
Here is what you say on your own website:

You just have to stay true to your nature. You just had to accuse me of something. I am not confused. I did not say one thing on this forum and then an entirely different thing on my website. I am not an imposter.

Moriah, from your own website the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, are not the same!!

1. Jesus is one person, as you say. It is through Jesus we have access to the Father.

2. The Father is another person, as you say. It is through Jesus we have access to the Father. Note the differentiation between these two persons.

Do you not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh?!

Even now Jesus sits on the right hand of the throne of God. Remember the stoning of Stephen. Jesus stood when Stephen was stoned.

God is invisible, God lives in unapproachable light, and God wraps Himself in light as with a garment.
Jesus is God made visible.

The Holy Spirit is another person, as you say. "God poured out the Holy Spirit on us. He is another person, distinct from the Father and the Son, and you have differentiated all three on your website.

There are three, and they are One, they are all the same.

They are not all the same! As you have pointed out they all have different functions. They all are separate from one another. They are all "persons." And yet we know that there is one God. How do you account for what is written here, and what you are saying to others on the board. Here you have an orthodox belief in the trinity expressed. To others, on this board, you are expressing unbelief in the trinity, and are espousing heresy!
Which person are you?
Clarify yourself.
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

You just keep throwing more accusations that need not be.

 

[billwald]

The quotation in post #1 sounds like a koan. Was Jesus a Zen Buddhist?

 

[DHK]

You just have to stay true to your nature. You just had to accuse me of something. I am not confused. I did not say one thing on this forum and then an entirely different thing on my website. I am not an imposter.

I will stick with what I say. I will quote Scripture for you.
"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
You quote one thing on this board and another thing on your website.
What does that make you? It makes you both double minded and hypocritical. Make up your mind what you believe. If I am accusing you of something false then demonstrate to all the board what is false that I am accusing you of.

(ESV) Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
--That is a good verse. Act like a man.
It means don't be a wimp!
"He's accusing me! He's accusing me! Oh, Boo hoo hoo; He's accusing me!"
--Does that have to be your defense half the time?

Why not defend from the Bible that which you are accused of, heresy!

Do you not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh?!

Yes, but why?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
The phrase in the beginning, en arche, means from and before the beginning of time. Our English really doesn't have an equivalent translation for the Greek expression. It is not pointing to a specific period. It is pointing to eternity past. And in that eternity past where there was no beginning existed the Word.
The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
--The Word created all things.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
--No man has seen God at any time. He is invisible. From the very beginning of time and even before, no man has seen God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
--But God the Word was made flesh, dwelt among those on the earth in the first century, and they beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father.
The Word is God.
The Word is Jesus Christ. He was part of the triune Godhead long before creation, and he became flesh at the beginning of the first century. People saw him, believed on him, and many rejected him. Finally they crucified him. God became flesh. The second person of the triune Godhead became flesh.

Is he still in the flesh? Yes, he is, as he sits at the right hand of the throne of God, in his resurrected body, ever making intercession for those that have trusted in him.

God is invisible, God lives in unapproachable light, and God wraps Himself in light as with a garment.
Jesus is God made visible.

Christ made God approachable
We can now approach the throne of God directly without any mediator as the Levitical system had. We are priests before God.

There are three, and they are One, they are all the same.

If Jesus has a body and the other two do not they are obviously not the same are they? How do you explain that?

You just keep throwing more accusations that need not be.

You keep avoiding the accusations of wrong doctrine and whine like someone who doesn't know the answers to the doctrine given you. Then you cry out: Accusation! Accusation!

You do err not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God.

 

[Moriah]

I will stick with what I say. I will quote Scripture for you.
"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
You quote one thing on this board and another thing on your website. What does that make you? It makes you both double minded and hypocritical. Make up your mind what you believe. If I am accusing you of something false then demonstrate to all the board what is false that I am accusing you of

Even after I show you your falseness, you still deny it even when it is right in front of you. You speak things that are not true and do not want me to say anything about it. You just keep making false accusations when debating could be so much more enjoyable if you controlled yourself.

--That is a good verse. Act like a man.
It means don't be a wimp!
"He's accusing me! He's accusing me! Oh, Boo hoo hoo; He's accusing me!"
--Does that have to be your defense half the time?

Do you know what an accuser is? Do you know what a hypocrite is?

You and Biblicist can say I am blind, a liar, a heretic, etc, yet if I defend myself and say you are a liar for calling me a liar, you give me an infraction and a twisted private message where you further your abusive nature.
You and Biblicist can say I am not saved, yet if I say in defense that you do not know God, you give me another infraction with another twisted private message.
You like to abuse your power here. You heap insult upon insult to some of us here, and we have to quietly take it or just leave since we are not Baptist and this is a Baptist group, that is your defense for not following the rules of the board.

Why not defend from the Bible that which you are accused of, heresy!

I do defend the faith.

The Word is Jesus Christ. He was part of the triune Godhead long before creation, and he became flesh at the beginning of the first century. People saw him, believed on him, and many rejected him. Finally they crucified him. God became flesh. The second person of the triune Godhead became flesh.

Try to explain from your beliefs of the trinity how Jesus came in the flesh, yet existed with God from the beginning AND WAS God.

You speak in circles as if you are explaining something, and you are not.

Is he still in the flesh? Yes, he is, as he sits at the right hand of the throne of God, in his resurrected body, ever making intercession for those that have trusted in him.

Show me scripture that says Jesus is still in the flesh in heaven. Show me these scriptures so that I can study them.

If Jesus has a body and the other two do not they are obviously not the same are they? How do you explain that?

I explain it by saying God came in the flesh and was called Jesus.

 

[The Biblicist]

God spoke and Jesus appeared. When someone speaks, words are created.

Where was Jesus BEFORE God spoke? Wouldn't God have to EXIST previous to speaking Christ into existence or did Christ speak Himself into existence? Can't you see that they cannot be the same if one is the cause of the other?? The Cause must exist first or there is NOTHING to speak the Word into existence!

This is YOUR explanation so YOU EXPLAIN how they are the same and yet according to YOUR explanation one existed PRIOR to the other!

 

[DHK]

Even after I show you your falseness, you still deny it even when it is right in front of you. You speak things that are not true and do not want me to say anything about it. You just keep making false accusations when debating could be so much more enjoyable if you controlled yourself.

You haven't showed me any falseness. That is what I challenged you to do. You keep making this accusation. If you are going to make such an accusation back it up. Where, in my theology, am I false. Please demonstrate.

I showed you where you were false. Your statements on this board and on your website are not in harmony. They contradict each other. Your website supports the trinity; your comments here deny the trinity. Are you two different people, or just a hypocrite? Explain yourself. Explain the contradiction.

Explain this verse for me:
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Do you know what an accuser is? Do you know what a hypocrite is?

You have accused me in this post and others, so of course the answer is yes.
You are hypocritical because you say one thing one time and another thing another time. You speak "out of both sides of your mouth" as they say.

You and Biblicist can say I am blind, a liar, a heretic, etc, yet if I defend myself and say you are a liar for calling me a liar, you give me an infraction and a twisted private message where you further your abusive nature.
You and Biblicist can say I am not saved, yet if I say in defense that you do not know God, you give me another infraction with another twisted private message.

I will try to be neutral here. When a person believes that works or obedience is a requirement for salvation then most likely they are not saved. The Bible teaches that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone through grace alone.
Though the board may not have a definite statement of faith it is evangelical in its outlook, and all of the administration and all those that post in the Baptist forum would have no trouble agreeing with that statement. But you do. Your unbelief in that statement, or your belief in a works-based theology puts you outside the realm of orthodox Christianity. You are not a Baptist. Thus when your salvation is questioned because your beliefs about salvation are not within the bounds of orthodox Christianity it is understandable.
There are some here (in fact most) that believe "one cannot be saved unless he believes in the trinity." If you don't believe in the trinity, it is probable that you are not saved. Belief in the trinity is a foundational truth in Christianity, just like the deity of Christ is.

For you to show anger at other evangelicals, especially Baptists, and tell them that their teaching is from Satan, of hell, they are not saved, and other ungodly things is wrong. You are the guest on a Baptist board. You must accept that according to the Baptist faith, as we understand the Bible, your beliefs are outside of the Bible. According to the Bible you are on the wrong side of the fence. We can show you that. That doesn't give you the right to accuse us of being unsaved because you disagree with you.
I do sense your frustration, especially in my last post to you, for I used a lot of sarcasm to try to make a point with you. When error is pointed, you simply can't avoid false doctrine and call it a false accusation. You can't take things so personally. Defend your position.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

You like to abuse your power here. You heap insult upon insult to some of us here, and we have to quietly take it or just leave since we are not Baptist and this is a Baptist group, that is your defense for not following the rules of the board.

When you are not Baptist, your doctrine is not Biblical, and sometimes downright heretical.
1. A works based salvation is heretical.
2. A denial of the trinity is heretical.
Either of the above two doctrines can keep one from salvation (i.e., denying the trinity, or believing that salvation is by works).
Thus I will speak out against it very forcibly. Granted I may use sarcasm a bit too much. But heretical doctrines must be confronted either way.

I do defend the faith.

Defend the things that are presented to you, specifically presented to you. Stop avoiding things that are put to you.

Try to explain from your beliefs of the trinity how Jesus came in the flesh, yet existed with God from the beginning AND WAS God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1,14,18 explains how Christ is the Word. The Word was from the beginning which is before creation, before the beginning of time, and the Word was God. The Word (God) became flesh and dwelt among us. At the same time, no man can see God at anytime. And yet, Jesus Christ, the Word, came so that he could declare God to us. The only way we can know God is through Jesus Christ, the Word.

Show me scripture that says Jesus is still in the flesh in heaven. Show me these scriptures so that I can study them.

Jesus died, rose again, and then was seen of over 500 witnesses.
So far so good? After that he ascended into heaven.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
--They saw him go up into heaven in his resurrected body. They could seem him go. And they will see him come again. That was the promise. Why would he go up to heaven in a body, return in a body, but dispose of the body while in heaven? Does that make sense?

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
--Stephen saw Christ, not a vision, not he Whom is invisible, but Christ in his body.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
--He is passed into the heavens. That is he is in bodily form.
Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
--He remains a man, forever, with an unchangeable priesthood.
Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
--With that same body he shall appear a second time.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
--There is irrevocable proof. He is sitting on the right hand of the throne of God even now.

I explain it by saying God came in the flesh and was called Jesus.

You haven't explained anything.
All three persons exist, both now and before the world was ever created.

 

[Seve]

Again.......... In Matthew 22 we read the following... Inserstion are mine for presentation.

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD (?) said unto my (David’) Lord (YHVH), Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Questions remain unanswered…

1) If David’ Lord in the Old Testament was YHVH (Adonai)…. who’s was the LORD who ask David’s Lord to sit down on his right hand until He put His enemies in His footstool?

Conclusion:

No man knows the name of the invisible Almighty God Father at this time.

First, you are wrong about your Hebrew in Psalm 110. The one David calls "my Lord" is not YHVH but Adonai. The Hebrew text reads "The LORD (YHVH) said unto my Lord (Adonai). Check it out!

While the term “Lord” is used interchangeably to address the Title of both the Father and the Son, I am very much aware of the rendition of the Hebrew Scholars in ref. to the cited text above (Psalms 110). That's exactly why the issue has been brought forth to this thread (topic).

The questions, however, that need to be answered to prove your case… in analyzing the context of the actual text itself…. are the following.

1) Who was the actual Speaker of the cited text, ref. Psalms 110 in the Old Testament?
2) Who was the Speaker’ Lord..... referring to as… “ MY LORD” in the Old Testament?
3) When was the fulfillment of the prophetic vision took place, after Christ ressurection?

Now if you can honestly answer the questions I brought forth above correctly, then, your objection to my posts will have a basis to stand on, for a change.

However, let me warn you that only willingly ignorant will always stumble to this revelation of Biblical Truth.

:BangHead:

 

[Moriah]

You haven't showed me any falseness. That is what I challenged you to do. You keep making this accusation. If you are going to make such an accusation back it up. Where, in my theology, am I false. Please demonstrate.

You have many false beliefs.

You say “faith alone”. Yet the only time the Bible says “faith alone” is to tell us what kind of faith not to have, that it is dead faith, useless; however, you say that dead useless faith is the saving kind of faith. James 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

You say a person can only have faith in Jesus and anything more is faith plus works and is heretical. Yet the Bible says with the mouth we confess and are saved. Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

You say a person understands nothing of God, so then how did they understand enough to say they believe in Jesus? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:14. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11. Since that is the way faith comes, it would require some understanding. We are not even to lean on our own understanding, but God will cause you to understand after you obey, see Proverbs 3:5-6.

You say to repent does not mean to be sorry, yet that would be a filthy rag confession. See Isaiah 64:6. Furthermore, all languages define repent as a sorrow for an act and the turning from it.

You say we do not have to be sorry for our sins and that it means nothing to getting saved, yet Psalm 66:18 says, “If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened.”

You say to believe is not a work; however, Jesus says the work of God is to believe in His Son. John 6:24 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

You say the New Testament Law is harder; yet Jesus says his work is light and easy. Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." 1 John 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

You say a person receives the Holy Spirit for doing nothing but faith; however, the Bible says we receive the Holy Spirit when we obey. See John 14:23 and Acts 15:8.

You say the body of Christ is the local church and not literally Jesus’ body; however, the Bible says we are in Jesus. 1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit. John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

You say obedience causes death. The Bible tells us many times to obey. There are so many scriptures telling us we have to obey, that it would take up much room in this post. Therefore, I will post this one powerful scripture. Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

You claim a saved person who obeys would not have any wealth, but the scriptures give instructions to the wealthy in this world, and it is not to give it all away. 2 Corinthians 12:14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.

You claim it is a command for every single saved person to be a traveling teacher; however, there is no such thing in the scriptures where all the saved Roman men and women, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Hebrews, and Thessalonians were saved and became traveling teachers.

You say even if we never obey after being saved, that a person is still saved; however, the Bible says you are a liar and deceived. 1 John 2:4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. James 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

You say God nailed the whole Old Testament Law to the cross with all the things we are to do and not to do, even the perfect law in the New Testament you claim is nailed to the cross. However, the Bible says we are blessed if we do what the perfect law says to do. John 13:17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.


You say anything a person does before they are saved causes them to be a heretic and accursed. Yet Peter says people misunderstand Paul to their destruction. Before Peter says that about people misunderstanding Paul, Peter speaks about obeying Jesus. After Peter says that about people misunderstanding Paul, Peter speaks about obeying Jesus.

 

[Moriah]

You said Jesus was in the flesh in heaven. I asked you to “Show me scripture that says Jesus is still in the flesh in heaven. Show me these scriptures so that I can study them.”

This is what you said:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1,14,18 explains how Christ is the Word. The Word was from the beginning which is before creation, before the beginning of time, and the Word was God. The Word (God) became flesh and dwelt among us. At the same time, no man can see God at anytime. And yet, Jesus Christ, the Word, came so that he could declare God to us. The only way we can know God is through Jesus Christ, the Word.

Jesus died, rose again, and then was seen of over 500 witnesses.
So far so good? After that he ascended into heaven.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

--They saw him go up into heaven in his resurrected body. They could seem him go. And they will see him come again. That was the promise. Why would he go up to heaven in a body, return in a body, but dispose of the body while in heaven? Does that make sense?

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

--Stephen saw Christ, not a vision, not he Whom is invisible, but Christ in his body.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

--He is passed into the heavens. That is he is in bodily form.

Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

--He remains a man, forever, with an unchangeable priesthood.

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

--With that same body he shall appear a second time.

You have NOT proven that Jesus is in the flesh in heaven.

The Bible says “flesh” cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." 1 Corinthians 15:50-52.

God's children will rise to meet the Lord in the air clothed in changed bodies, no longer flesh and blood, but something far superior. The dead will be changed and rise, followed by those who are alive at Christ's coming 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Did you read that scripture? We do not know what we will be, but we shall be like Jesus, for we shall see him as he is. If people already seen him as he was in the flesh, then why does the scripture say we do not know? Put it down to ANOTHER false belief of yours being exposed.

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." 1 Corinthian 15:42-44.

 

[The Biblicist]

While the term “Lord” is used interchangeably to address the Title of both the Father and the Son

In the KJV Adonai is ALWAYS in lower case letters "Lord" while YHVH is ALWAYS in upper case letters "LORD" and so they are not interchangable at all.

I am very much aware of the rendition of the Hebrew Scholars in ref. to the cited text above (Psalms 110). That's exactly why the issue has been brought forth to this thread (topic).

I see, so much aware that you inaccurately spoke in your previous quote and continue to inaccurately speak in this post as well? "My Lord" is lower case not upper case. So the term "my Lord" refers to Adonai not YHVH.

The questions, however, that need to be answered to prove your case… in analyzing the context of the actual text itself…. are the following.

1) Who was the actual Speaker of the cited text, ref. Psalms 110 in the Old Testament?

David says that it was JHVH that is speaking and He is speaing to "my ADONAI" not to my "JHVH

2) Who was the Speaker’ Lord..... referring to as… “ MY LORD” in the Old Testament?

Again, the speaker is YHVH (LORD) not Adonai ("my Lord")

3) When was the fulfillment of the prophetic vision took place, after Christ ressurection?

This is prophetic and is fulfilled after the ascension of Christ to the right hand of the Father. The Father is sitting on the Throne and accomplishing this now and it will be accomplished at the Second Coming when Christ comes as King of kings and LORD of Lords and thus reign as King over this world.

Now if you can honestly answer the questions I brought forth above correctly, then, your objection to my posts will have a basis to stand on, for a change.

However, let me warn you that only willinging ignorant will stumble..."

Thus far, you have been the only one stumbling over the obvious.

 

[The Biblicist]

Where was Jesus BEFORE God spoke? Wouldn't God have to EXIST previous to speaking Christ into existence or did Christ speak Himself into existence? Can't you see that they cannot be the same if one is the cause of the other?? The Cause must exist first or there is NOTHING to speak the Word into existence!

This is YOUR explanation so YOU EXPLAIN how they are the same and yet according to YOUR explanation one existed PRIOR to the other!

Still waiting for an answer Moriah.

 

[The Biblicist]

You have NOT proven that Jesus is in the flesh in heaven.

You have to be kidding me? You are denying the resurrection of the physical body of Christ??? What body do you think He ascended into heaven with?

The Bible says “flesh” cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." 1 Corinthians 15:50-52.

It does not say "flesh" cannot inherit the kingdom of God BUT "flesh AND blood" cannot.

Have you ever looked up this phrase and how it is used in the New Testament? Apparently not! Why don't you start with that. First, look at how Christ uses it in Matthew 16:17 and then proceed to find how it is used elsewhere in scripture, then come back and we can have an intelligent discussion.

God's children will rise to meet the Lord in the air clothed in changed bodies, no longer flesh and blood, but something far superior. The dead will be changed and rise, followed by those who are alive at Christ's coming 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

Do you know what the term "resurrect" means? It means to "RAISE UP" and you cannot "RAISE UP" what never WENT DOWN. What do you think happened to Christ's body in the grave? The Bible says it saw NO CORRUPTION and it was RAISED UP from the grave.

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

So you think he ditched the body in the grave and it was never raised? Or that he ditched the body after the resurrection and did not ascend in the body he told Thomas to stick his fingers in his wounds and stop unbelieving????????

Did you read that scripture? We do not know what we will be, but we shall be like Jesus, for we shall see him as he is. If people already seen him as he was in the flesh, then why does the scripture say we do not know? Put it down to ANOTHER false belief of yours being exposed.

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." 1 Corinthian 15:42-44.

The "IT" that was sown is the same "IT" raised.

The "natural" body is the predeath body that was "perishable....dishonor...weakness."

The "spiritual body is the same body "raised...imperishable...raised in glory....raised in power..."

What was RAISED if "IT" never was buried????? Paul says the "IT" that was sown is the same "IT" that is raised as YOU CANNOT RAISE A SPIRITUAL BODY BECAUSE IT CANNOT DIE!!!!!!!!

 

[DHK]

You have many false beliefs.

So YOU say. And so do the Mormons, the J.W.'s, and many others who hold to false doctrine. False teachers always say that I hold to false beliefs. Isn't that ironic!

You say “faith alone”. Yet the only time the Bible says “faith alone” is to tell us what kind of faith not to have, that it is dead faith, useless; however, you say that dead useless faith is the saving kind of faith. James 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Are you really going to stake your salvation on two words taken out of context in a book that is written to Christians, speaking of practical Christianity, having nothing to do with salvation. It speaks of the result of our faith, which is works. It is speaking to Christians. And you are going to gamble eternity away on these two words not seriously considering what the rest of Scripture says. This is not only truly amazing, it is horribly sad! I fear for you.

The Bible clearly says:
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--There are no works involved here; only faith.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--Salvation is by grace, through faith, and is the gift of God (gifts are freely received and never worked for).
Salvation is:
1. not of yourself--there is nothing you can do--no obedience, no good works, not any kind of works. There is absolutely nothing "of yourself" that you can do.
2. It is "not of works." Not of any works--OT works, NT works, good works, works of obedience--no works at all.
3. Why? "lest any man should boast." When you get to heaven you will not be able to boast in your works. You will never be able to say: "Look what good works, what obedience, I did in order to be saved." Jesus did not pay it all, I helped him with my obedience (works). This is heresy, an insult to Jesus, just as if you were spitting in his face, the worst kind of blasphemous insult he could ever receive. Your salvation of works (not faith alone) denies the sufficiency of Christ--that Christ did not have the power and did not pay the full penalty of the price of our sins. He failed. You, by your good works and obedience had to pay a part of that price, because Christ failed. What heresy!
We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone through grace alone.

You say a person can only have faith in Jesus and anything more is faith plus works and is heretical. Yet the Bible says with the mouth we confess and are saved. Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

"To believe" and "faith" are the same words. One is a verb and the other a noun. There is no difference.
To confess is an expression of that of that faith. To use language not in the Bible, when a person "trusts Christ as his savior," it is not the prayer, the actual words that saves him, it is what comes from the heart; the confession that he makes. He believes with his heart and confesses with his mouth that which he has believed. It doesn't mean it has to be a large public confession as some suppose. The Ethiopian Eunuch was alone in the desert. The thief on the cross was alone on the cross.

You say a person understands nothing of God, so then how did they understand enough to say they believe in Jesus?

I have perhaps explained this to you a dozen times now. It shows that you are unteachable. You refuse to be taught. You refuse to listen.
Once again. The Ethiopian could understand nothing of the Word of God until someone showed him and caused him to understand the Scriptures. He could not understand unless the Holy Spirit was there to open his eyes.

Here is Scripture:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
--It is not I that says the unsaved man cannot comprehend the things of God; it is God himself that sounds forth that truth. Your argument is with God, not me.

Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:14. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11. Since that is the way faith comes, it would require some understanding. We are not even to lean on our own understanding, but God will cause you to understand after you obey, see Proverbs 3:5-6.

Don't go off on a red herring. You twist the Scriptures to your own destruction. All of the above Scripture is directed to Christians not to the unsaved. It is the unsaved that cannot understand the Scriptures on his own, not the saved. Read carefully again what I said. Read how the Ethiopian Eunuch got saved in the light of what you posted, and see how not one verse that you posted applies.

You say to repent does not mean to be sorry, yet that would be a filthy rag confession. See Isaiah 64:6. Furthermore, all languages define repent as a sorrow for an act and the turning from it.

I have explained; Biblicist has explained, so has Yahew, and many others: repentance is not "sorrow for sins." That is unbiblical poppy-cock. You can't find that definition in the Bible. When challenged you have never been able to do it. Here is your circular reasoning. I challenge you to find the definition of "sorry for your sins" as the definition of repentance. What do you do? You simply quote a number of verses with the word "repent" in it thinking you have proved your point. You have proved nothing. You didn't prove that repent means "sorry for your sins." You showed that the word "repent" is used in the Bible. I already acknowledge that. But it doesn't mean what you say it means.

Hears the problem in a practical way. A few days we had the opportunity to lead an elderly lady, who is in her 80's to the Lord. You say she must repent (be sorry for ALL her sins). That is an impossibility. She can't even remember everything she did yesterday, let alone the last 80 years of her life. She lives in a home for Seniors. You want her to do something that is absolutely impossible or she cannot be saved. Thus according to your theology she is condemned. She cannot be saved because she cannot be sorry for ALL her sins. If you were honest with yourself, you didn't confess all your sins when you came to Christ either, because you were not able to remember them all. You don't have a photographic memory or more accurately an "eidetic memory." You are unable to recall every single thing that took place in your life. You can't recall all your sins; thus you also remain unsaved, for you were unable to be sorry for ALL your sins. You were unable to bring them to the Lord one by one and confess them one by one and be sorry for them all. It is impossible for an unsaved person (especially as an adult) to do that. If you maintain it is possible then you have no understanding of sin.

 

[DHK]

You say we do not have to be sorry for our sins and that it means nothing to getting saved, yet Psalm 66:18 says, “If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened.”

It says nothing about being sorry for your sins. Where do you get that from?

You say to believe is not a work; however, Jesus says the work of God is to believe in His Son. John 6:24 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

As much as it is explained to you, you still do not understand the verse.

You say the New Testament Law is harder; yet Jesus says his work is light and easy. Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." 1 John 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

Do you love your neighbor as yourself. The world is our neighbor, including the one billion plus in India and China. How many of them have you gone to and told the gospel which you selfishly keep to yourself.

C.T. Studd said:
[FONT=&quot]"Some wish to live within the sound of Church or Chapel bell; I want to run a Rescue Shop within a yard of hell."[/FONT]
--He gave up fame and fortune and spent his life in China, India, and Africa, reaching the lost and the unevangelized world as he knew it, until the day of his death.

You say a person receives the Holy Spirit for doing nothing but faith; however, the Bible says we receive the Holy Spirit when we obey. See John 14:23 and Acts 15:8.

Don't misquote me or it becomes another lie.
A person receives the Holy Spirit the day he becomes saved. A person becomes saved when he puts his faith in Christ and his atoning work on the cross.

You say the body of Christ is the local church and not literally Jesus’ body; however, the Bible says we are in Jesus. 1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit. John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

You have linked a number of verses together, all taken out of context, which do not make sense.

You say obedience causes death. The Bible tells us many times to obey. There are so many scriptures telling us we have to obey, that it would take up much room in this post. Therefore, I will post this one powerful scripture. Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Again, misrepresenting me and misquoting my words or saying what I didn't say is a lie. It is a way of life with you.
I quoted you. You said, "Obedience to the law is death." I said the same thing. I quoted you. Why did you misquote me? What a dishonest thing to do! You need to repent.

You claim a saved person who obeys would not have any wealth,

Quote me. Stop your lying.

but the scriptures give instructions to the wealthy in this world, and it is not to give it all away. 2 Corinthians 12:14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.

Where have I said such things. Quote me. Stop lying!

You claim it is a command for every single saved person to be a traveling teacher; however, there is no such thing in the scriptures where all the saved Roman men and women, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Hebrews, and Thessalonians were saved and became traveling teachers.

I said it is the responsibility of every Christian to be involved in obeying the Great Commission given to every believer. In what way have you obeyed the Great Commission: to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every person?

You say even if we never obey after being saved, that a person is still saved;

And I asked, Was the thief on the cross saved? What chance did he have to obey the Lord?

however, the Bible says you are a liar and deceived. 1 John 2:4

The Bible also says "by thy words thou shalt be justified and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.?
Are you ready for the judgment?

The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. James 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

And how many times in this one post did you lie about me?
Who is the one that is a liar?
Look to your own self first!

You say God nailed the whole Old Testament Law to the cross with all the things we are to do and not to do, even the perfect law in the New Testament you claim is nailed to the cross. However, the Bible says we are blessed if we do what the perfect law says to do. John 13:17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

You misunderstood what I said. I said it is more difficult to keep the laws and commands given in the NT than in the OT.

You say anything a person does before they are saved causes them to be a heretic and accursed.

An unsaved person cannot please God.

Yet Peter says people misunderstand Paul to their destruction.

People said that about false teachers, whoever they maybe.

Before Peter says that about people misunderstanding Paul, Peter speaks about obeying Jesus. After Peter says that about people misunderstanding Paul, Peter speaks about obeying Jesus.

You are not obeying Jesus by believing false doctrine and refusing correction.

 

[DHK]

You said Jesus was in the flesh in heaven. I asked you to “Show me scripture that says Jesus is still in the flesh in heaven. Show me these scriptures so that I can study them.”

This is what you said:

You have NOT proven that Jesus is in the flesh in heaven.

He sits at the right hand of the throne of God (Heb.12:2)
How can you sit, unless you have a body?

The Bible says “flesh” cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." 1 Corinthians 15:50-52.

It says "inherit", not "enter."

God's children will rise to meet the Lord in the air clothed in changed bodies, no longer flesh and blood, but something far superior. The dead will be changed and rise, followed by those who are alive at Christ's coming 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Did you read that scripture? We do not know what we will be, but we shall be like Jesus, for we shall see him as he is. If people already seen him as he was in the flesh, then why does the scripture say we do not know? Put it down to ANOTHER false belief of yours being exposed.

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." 1 Corinthian 15:42-44.

Your own Scripture exposes the error of your belief.

We know that when Christ appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

The resurrection of Jesus has already taken place. He sits in heaven with his resurrected body. We await for his coming. When it takes place we shall see him as he is, in that resurrected body, and we too shall be just like him, in a body just like his--a physical body like his. He now has a physical body, and when he comes the resurrection will take place and we also will have a resurrection body as he has now. The scripture is plain isn't it?

 

[Yeshua1]

You have many false beliefs.

You say “faith alone”. Yet the only time the Bible says “faith alone” is to tell us what kind of faith not to have, that it is dead faith, useless; however, you say that dead useless faith is the saving kind of faith. James 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

You say a person can only have faith in Jesus and anything more is faith plus works and is heretical. Yet the Bible says with the mouth we confess and are saved. Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

You say a person understands nothing of God, so then how did they understand enough to say they believe in Jesus? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:14. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11. Since that is the way faith comes, it would require some understanding. We are not even to lean on our own understanding, but God will cause you to understand after you obey, see Proverbs 3:5-6.

You say to repent does not mean to be sorry, yet that would be a filthy rag confession. See Isaiah 64:6. Furthermore, all languages define repent as a sorrow for an act and the turning from it.

You say we do not have to be sorry for our sins and that it means nothing to getting saved, yet Psalm 66:18 says, “If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened.”

You say to believe is not a work; however, Jesus says the work of God is to believe in His Son. John 6:24 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

You say the New Testament Law is harder; yet Jesus says his work is light and easy. Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." 1 John 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

You say a person receives the Holy Spirit for doing nothing but faith; however, the Bible says we receive the Holy Spirit when we obey. See John 14:23 and Acts 15:8.

You say the body of Christ is the local church and not literally Jesus’ body; however, the Bible says we are in Jesus. 1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit. John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

You say obedience causes death. The Bible tells us many times to obey. There are so many scriptures telling us we have to obey, that it would take up much room in this post. Therefore, I will post this one powerful scripture. Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

You claim a saved person who obeys would not have any wealth, but the scriptures give instructions to the wealthy in this world, and it is not to give it all away. 2 Corinthians 12:14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.

You claim it is a command for every single saved person to be a traveling teacher; however, there is no such thing in the scriptures where all the saved Roman men and women, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Hebrews, and Thessalonians were saved and became traveling teachers.

You say even if we never obey after being saved, that a person is still saved; however, the Bible says you are a liar and deceived. 1 John 2:4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. James 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

You say God nailed the whole Old Testament Law to the cross with all the things we are to do and not to do, even the perfect law in the New Testament you claim is nailed to the cross. However, the Bible says we are blessed if we do what the perfect law says to do. John 13:17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.


You say anything a person does before they are saved causes them to be a heretic and accursed. Yet Peter says people misunderstand Paul to their destruction. Before Peter says that about people misunderstanding Paul, Peter speaks about obeying Jesus. After Peter says that about people misunderstanding Paul, Peter speaks about obeying Jesus.

Do you hold that God is three persons in the sense just "roles" he did, like actor in a play, just "changed cloths?"

So in OT called as Father, NT jesus, Now as HOly Spirit? OR

Did God create jesus at some point in time, that Jesus was NOT always God?

is the Spirit real, and a person with divine attributes?