Is it always God's will to heal?

[DHK]

The post underlined I do not agree with and have made several post showing where I stand on it!
Nowhere in any of my post have I said that those that speak in tongues are more godly!

Again, your debates with me have become too personal! I will debate scriptures but not personal attacks! If you want to ask me if I believe something that is one thing...but to put up with you posting what I believe when I never said that is another!

The Charismatics believe that the godly are those that speak in tongues. Paul maintains that this is the least important of all the gifts and in some cases it was being used in a carnal way. He maintains that five words in his own language which people could understand were better than 10,000 words in tongues where people could not understand. It was carnal. It was not a mark of spirituality.
The mark of a godly Christian was one would suffer for Christ. I dedicated an entire post full of Scripture for just that purpose, linking salvation to suffering.

If tongues is not a mark of spirituality, then why do it? Why is it so important?

 

[awaken]

The Charismatics believe that the godly are those that speak in tongues. Paul maintains that this is the least important of all the gifts and in some cases it was being used in a carnal way. He maintains that five words in his own language which people could understand were better than 10,000 words in tongues where people could not understand. It was carnal. It was not a mark of spirituality.
The mark of a godly Christian was one would suffer for Christ. I dedicated an entire post full of Scripture for just that purpose, linking salvation to suffering.

If tongues is not a mark of spirituality, then why do it? Why is it so important?

You want to open up a thread to discuss the benefits of praying in the spirit...fine! This thread is about "Is it always God's will to heal?"

 

[DHK]

You want to open up a thread to discuss the benefits of praying in the spirit...fine! This thread is about "Is it always God's will to heal?"

I gave you an entire post:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1913838&postcount=56

You just brushed off the Scripture, never gave a good answer at all. Figured that the Israelites had all the OT scriptures memorized, etc. When I give you a post about God's will to heal will you answer it according to Scripture? No. You allegorize it instead.

Paul had a "thorn in the flesh," an idiom meaning an infirmity, which he himself defines as such. He says, "therefore will I glory in my infirmities," referring to his thorn in the flesh after he prays three times for the Lord to take it away. But three times the Lord answers: "My grace is sufficient for thee." Therefore Paul glories in his infirmities. It is an infirmity, a weakness, something wrong in his body, that the Lord did not heal.

You made the ridiculous statement that I pointed out to you, could not possibly true.

Show me sickness in their life that was not healed! Death does not count...all are appointed to die!

Unless it is a "chronic condition" like Paul's eyesight or lameness or blindness, God heals all of our diseases until we die. That is common sense. But he does it in different ways. The normal way of healing is that the body produces antibodies that fight off the sickness and we heal naturally. That is what happens when you get a cold. A cold is not going to kill you. You will eventually get well again. The same goes with the flu, sinus infections, and many other ailments or sicknesses that all of us fight through as we go through life. God made the body to fight off disease naturally. It heals itself.
Luke was a physician. Over time the physicians' knowledge has grown, until we come to today where we have very knowledgeable doctors and are equipped with very hi-tech machinery in helping us. God uses those methods in healing us as well. We don't discount that. God uses mankind.
Then, sometimes, God heals supernaturally. Sometimes--in answer to prayer.
In any event the body is healed until it dies. Is that not true?

 

[John of Japan]

...but to put up with you posting what I believe when I never said that is another!

How extremely hypocritical. You have over and over attributed things to me that I never said and don't believe, and have never taken a single thing back nor apologized. (You just did so again elsewhere.) And now you are complaining because you think DHK is doing so.

IF you want to believe that God puts sickness on his children..go ahead!

See here, once again you have attributed something to me that I never said. For you to then to accuse DHK of that is hypocritical. You've done it over and over, and each time I've confronted you, yet you've not taken it back one single time. You have committed the terrible sin of false witness (a sin that destroys reputations and lives) over and over here on the BB.

 

[awaken]

How extremely hypocritical. You have over and over attributed things to me that I never said and don't believe, and have never taken a single thing back nor apologized. (You just did so again elsewhere.) And now you are complaining because you think DHK is doing so.

Show me one!

See here, once again you have attributed something to me that I never said. For you to then to accuse DHK of that is hypocritical. You've done it over and over, and each time I've confronted you, yet you've not taken it back one single time. You have committed the terrible sin of false witness (a sin that destroys reputations and lives) over and over here on the BB.

YOu said... If God heals us through medicine, it is His will for us to be sick until the medicine cures us. I said you can believe that if you want!

 

[awaken]

I gave you an entire post:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1913838&postcount=56

You just brushed off the Scripture, never gave a good answer at all. Figured that the Israelites had all the OT scriptures memorized, etc. When I give you a post about God's will to heal will you answer it according to Scripture? No. You allegorize it instead.

I still do not know how you actually believe?? Your post are back an forth...and you add to your post something that is not even in the thread.

Paul had a "thorn in the flesh," an idiom meaning an infirmity, which he himself defines as such. He says, "therefore will I glory in my infirmities," referring to his thorn in the flesh after he prays three times for the Lord to take it away. But three times the Lord answers: "My grace is sufficient for thee." Therefore Paul glories in his infirmities. It is an infirmity, a weakness, something wrong in his body, that the Lord did not heal.

I explained this over and over..we do not see it the same! Believe as you like! I do not believe Pauls "thorn in the flesh" was an illness and I explained why!

You made the ridiculous statement that I pointed out to you, could not possibly true.

Well, it is no surprise to me! We do not seem to agree on anything!

Unless it is a "chronic condition" like Paul's eyesight or lameness or blindness, God heals all of our diseases until we die. That is common sense.

Really? So some people that are never cured..how do you explain that?

But he does it in different ways. The normal way of healing is that the body produces antibodies that fight off the sickness and we heal naturally. That is what happens when you get a cold. A cold is not going to kill you. You will eventually get well again. The same goes with the flu, sinus infections, and many other ailments or sicknesses that all of us fight through as we go through life. God made the body to fight off disease naturally. It heals itself.
Luke was a physician. Over time the physicians' knowledge has grown, until we come to today where we have very knowledgeable doctors and are equipped with very hi-tech machinery in helping us. God uses those methods in healing us as well. We don't discount that. God uses mankind.
Then, sometimes, God heals supernaturally. Sometimes--in answer to prayer.
In any event the body is healed until it dies. Is that not true?

Well, we will agree that God heals in different ways! But not all bodies are healed they die in there disease. My mother was not healed until after her death.

 

[John of Japan]

Why does it have to be God's will for her to be sick? What is wrong with saying the sickness is not from God...God is the healer! We are going to get sick living in this world...our bodies will decay and die! But that was not God's will from the beginning! Man brought it (death) all on himself by sin! Sin and sickness is a part of living in this world! But God is still the healer! Yesterday, today and tomorrow!

You can't have it both ways. You can't say it is always God's will to heal, and then say that sometimes God uses medicine to heal. That is illogical. When a person is being healed with medicine, there is a time when they are still sick. Therefore, if it is God's will for them to be healed with that medicine rather than immediately by a miracle, then for that period of time before they are completely healed, it is God's will for them to be sick.

Maybe you should have asked these things before you assumed!!

So I ask the questions, you do not answer them, then you say I should not have assumed the answers? Since you do not answer the questions, I will then assume what I asked: you don't have a lexicon, you don't have a Greek grammar, and you were not taught Greek.

I have a Bible software that has several dictionaries/commentaries/references/Greek and Hebrew. Did I go to school...NO! I pray a lot in the spirit...and the HS leads me and teaches me! Before you go crazy on me..God has taught me alot through others, but the HS is always there to guide me to all truth!

Everyone on the BB has Bible software. Everyone but you who hasn't studied the Greek is willing to admit that. And we all have the same Holy Spirit.

Did not say sickness. He was beaten to death, remember? He walked back into a town within 24 hour of that beating, didn't he? So who healed him of this beating?

I suppose you mean Acts 14:19. Once again you show your inability to properly exegete. It doesn't say he died, it says that they supposed him to be dead. When he lists his persecutions in 2 Cor. 11 he does not say he had died.

I'm an expert in personal combat. It's entirely possible for him to have walked again within 24 hours after being beaten without being miraculously healed.

IF you want to believe that God puts sickness on his children..go ahead!

I'm sick of your dishonest representations of what I believe, your false witnessing against me.

 

[awaken]

Those that voted the it is not God's will to heal...then are you saying the illness is God's fault?
Do you blame God for your illness?
How do you explain to a child that their mother is dying with Cancer that it is God's will that she has cancer?

 

[John of Japan]

Show me one!!

I have, over and over. Go back and read the threads. You are so argumentative and self-satisfied, you have never even once responded when I told you you were mis-representing me. So why should I go back and show you? You will still not respond.

YOu said... If God heals us through medicine, it is His will for us to be sick until the medicine cures us. I said you can believe that if you want

"It is His will for us to be sick" and "He gave us the sickness" are logicially incompatible.

 

[awaken]

I have, over and over. Go back and read the threads. You are so argumentative and self-satisfied, you have never even once responded when I told you you were mis-representing me. So why should I go back and show you? You will still not respond.

So there are none..

"It is His will for us to be sick" and "He gave us the sickness" are logicially incompatible.

So which is it? Clear up what you believe!
I know you do not believe it is always God's will to heal.
Do you believe that God gives us sickness?
If so is it to punish us?
Is it a curse?

 

[awaken]

You can't have it both ways. You can't say it is always God's will to heal, and then say that sometimes God uses medicine to heal. That is illogical.

Yes you can! God's will is not for us to be sick..it is his will to heal us! How he heals us can be done in many ways...that is not illogical!

When a person is being healed with medicine, there is a time when they are still sick. Therefore, if it is God's will for them to be healed with that medicine rather than immediately by a miracle, then for that period of time before they are completely healed, it is God's will for them to be sick.

Could it be that he choses that way because some reject his healing ministries? He wants good for us not bad!

So I ask the questions, you do not answer them, then you say I should not have assumed the answers? Since you do not answer the questions, I will then assume what I asked: you don't have a lexicon, you don't have a Greek grammar, and you were not taught Greek.
Everyone on the BB has Bible software. Everyone but you who hasn't studied the Greek is willing to admit that. And we all have the same Holy Spirit.
I suppose you mean Acts 14:19. Once again you show your inability to properly exegete. It doesn't say he died, it says that they supposed him to be dead. When he lists his persecutions in 2 Cor. 11 he does not say he had died.

He was left to die....close enough! The point..which you missed is that he was healed.

I'm an expert in personal combat. It's entirely possible for him to have walked again within 24 hours after being beaten without being miraculously healed.
I'm sick of your dishonest representations of what I believe, your false witnessing against me.

Well...I guess I assumed as you did about how and what I study by!
I said if you want to believe...I did not say YOU BELIEVED! That is not dishonest representing!

 

[John of Japan]

So there are none..

I just gave one a couple of posts ago, and again you ignored it. You have no desire to make things right where you have misrepresented me, that is entirely obvious.

So which is it? Clear up what you believe!
I know you do not believe it is always God's will to heal.
Do you believe that God gives us sickness?
If so is it to punish us?
Is it a curse?

I've answered these things over and over. It's not my fault you refuse to read accurately what I've posted. Why should I play along with your refusal to understand or accurately respond to my positions? If you really want to know what I believe (I don't think you do), go back and read accurately, then try to understand.

 

[DHK]

Sometimes it is good to make things personal, Awaken, because it gets people to think.
Think about your own position:

Have you ever been sick?
Do you attribute your sickness to Satan or to God?

Is it not true that nothing can happen to you without the permission of God?
Therefore it is God that allows sickness in your life, right?
Ultimately then, sickness must come from God.
God allows sickness, suffering, tribulations of all sorts that we may be conformed to his image.

"For when I am weak, then I am strong."

 

[awaken]

Sometimes it is good to make things personal, Awaken, because it gets people to think.
Think about your own position:

Have you ever been sick?
Do you attribute your sickness to Satan or to God?

Is it not true that nothing can happen to you without the permission of God?
Therefore it is God that allows sickness in your life, right?
Ultimately then, sickness must come from God.
God allows sickness, suffering, tribulations of all sorts that we may be conformed to his image.

"For when I am weak, then I am strong."

Yes
I do not attribute my sickness to God. I do not believe that my father would put sickness on me anymore than I would my children. That sounds more like child abuse!
God reproves, corrects and instructs us through His Word. The Lord's system of correction is not sickness, disease, and tragedy. God disciplines and trains us through His Word.( 2 Tim 3:16, 17).
God put sickness on people in the OT, but it was never a blessing (Deut. 28).

God can work anything that happens to us together for good, but not everything that happens to us comes from God.

 

[DHK]

Yes
I do not attribute my sickness to God. I do not believe that my father would put sickness on me anymore than I would my children. That sounds more like child abuse!
God reproves, corrects and instructs us through His Word. The Lord's system of correction is not sickness, disease, and tragedy. God disciplines and trains us through His Word.( 2 Tim 3:16, 17).
God put sickness on people in the OT, but it was never a blessing (Deut. 28).

God can work anything that happens to us together for good, but not everything that happens to us comes from God.

David's infant died. Before the infant died, David fasted, mourned, wept and prayed to God that the infant would not die, but that his life would be preserved. The baby died anyway. The servants feared, now that the baby was died, what David would do?! What his emotional state would be?
But astonishingly, David arose, washed himself, changed his clothe, and had his servants bring food. When asked about the change of his demeanor, David answered and said:

While the child was alive there was chance that God would save the life of the child. So David prayed and pleaded for the life of the child. But God did not save the life of the child. He remained sick, and died, according to the will of God.

When David saw that the will of God was done, there was nothing else for him to do. He said: "The child will not come to me; I shall go to him," the confidence that David would see his child in heaven.

Put God gave the sickness to the baby. And God caused the death of the baby. God took the baby home out of David's hand.

 

[John of Japan]

Could it be that he choses that way because some reject his healing ministries? He wants good for us not bad!

This is not in the Bible.

He was left to die....close enough! The point..which you missed is that he was healed.

I missed nothing. I looked in Scripture. You are adding to Scripture. Paul did not say in his writings that he was healed, and Luke did not say in the book of Acts that he was healed then.

Well...I guess I assumed as you did about how and what I study by!

Yes you did assume, after I have said that I did not believe that. My assumption about your studies was correct, and you have not rebutted it. You do not know Greek, you do not have a Greek grammar that you refer to, and you do not have a Greek lexicon. I asked you politely to tell me what Greek aids you used, and you did not. It's been very obvious all along that you have no training in Greek--really I concluded from the abundant evidence rather than assumed.

But I assumed nothing about what you believe, and I neve have. I've always asked you. You were dishonest. It is never right to assume what someone believes. It is witnessing falsely. You have "assumed" over and over what I believe. An honest debater asks what someone believes, they do not assume.

I said if you want to believe...I did not say YOU BELIEVED! That is not dishonest representing!

Yes it is. You know in your heart that the "If" you used is an assumption that the following statement was true, as in, "Well if that didn't hurt when he was tackled, then...." The English language allows for such a statement of truth starting with the word "If."

 

[John of Japan]

Some of you may remember that my Mom died last Septemberr just after we arrived home on furlough. I believe she actually waited to go to Heaven until after Patty and I came home. We got to visit her one time, then one day walking to dinner in the old folks home she simply collapsed and went to Heaven at age 86. I was privileged to preach her funeral sermon, being the only preacher in the immediate family since Dad went to Heaven 10 years ago.

When she died, Mom had several illnesses including high blood pressure and Parkinson's disease. (I've never heard of Charismatic healers healing these. They are not high profile diseases, and you can't tell by looking at a person if they have the disease or not.) Does it mean I think God is a bad Father because I believe it was God's permissive will for her to have these diseases? Not in the slightest. How could it be a bad thing to have a disease that takes you to Heaven, where there is no disease or pain?

What was it that took Mom to Heaven? I don't know, we didn't have an autopsy done. Whatever it was, it was a bodily weakness. Everyone who dies in old age, barring an accident or murder, dies of some bodily weakness or disease. Why? It is a natural result. Sickness is natural, it is part of the fallen universe. God allows the natural, fallen universe to continue on its course, so the sun continues to shine, and viruses and bacteria give people sickness. God can and will heal in answer to prayer, and in doing so, comes down with grace into nature (to paraphrase Aquinas and Schaeffer) to perform a miracle. I've seen miracles of healing, and you probably have too. But why would it be considered strange that nature takes its course.

Mom is in Heaven now with Dad. I'm proud of her and Dad, and all this past furlough I talked about her and Dad in my sermons, telling how they wanted to be missionaries to Tibet but could not, how they won souls all of their lives, how Mom always tried to help people, and how Dad faithfully preached the Gospel for 60 years. Why in the world would I think the Alzheimer's (another disease that "healers" never heal) that took Dad or whatever took Mom to be a cruel enemy? These illnesses took them to Heaven!! Praise the Lord!

 

[awaken]

David's infant died. Before the infant died, David fasted, mourned, wept and prayed to God that the infant would not die, but that his life would be preserved. The baby died anyway. The servants feared, now that the baby was died, what David would do?! What his emotional state would be?
But astonishingly, David arose, washed himself, changed his clothe, and had his servants bring food. When asked about the change of his demeanor, David answered and said:

While the child was alive there was chance that God would save the life of the child. So David prayed and pleaded for the life of the child. But God did not save the life of the child. He remained sick, and died, according to the will of God.

When David saw that the will of God was done, there was nothing else for him to do. He said: "The child will not come to me; I shall go to him," the confidence that David would see his child in heaven.

Put God gave the sickness to the baby. And God caused the death of the baby. God took the baby home out of David's hand.

I have stated several times why sickness comes in the NT...sin/direct attack from satan/ natural things.
Sickness in the OT is never a blessing...it is a curse. David sinned..vs. 9 says he did evil in God's sight!
Now show me out of the New Covenant where God brings a curse or punishment on someone...or has he redeemed us from the curse?
If we sin we will be forgiven but we will reap what we sow!

 

[awaken]

Some of you may remember that my Mom died last Septemberr just after we arrived home on furlough. I believe she actually waited to go to Heaven until after Patty and I came home. We got to visit her one time, then one day walking to dinner in the old folks home she simply collapsed and went to Heaven at age 86. I was privileged to preach her funeral sermon, being the only preacher in the immediate family since Dad went to Heaven 10 years ago.

When she died, Mom had several illnesses including high blood pressure and Parkinson's disease. (I've never heard of Charismatic healers healing these. They are not high profile diseases, and you can't tell by looking at a person if they have the disease or not.) Does it mean I think God is a bad Father because I believe it was God's permissive will for her to have these diseases? Not in the slightest. How could it be a bad thing to have a disease that takes you to Heaven, where there is no disease or pain?

What was it that took Mom to Heaven? I don't know, we didn't have an autopsy done. Whatever it was, it was a bodily weakness. Everyone who dies in old age, barring an accident or murder, dies of some bodily weakness or disease. Why? It is a natural result. Sickness is natural, it is part of the fallen universe. God allows the natural, fallen universe to continue on its course, so the sun continues to shine, and viruses and bacteria give people sickness. God can and will heal in answer to prayer, and in doing so, comes down with grace into nature (to paraphrase Aquinas and Schaeffer) to perform a miracle. I've seen miracles of healing, and you probably have too. But why would it be considered strange that nature takes its course.

Mom is in Heaven now with Dad. I'm proud of her and Dad, and all this past furlough I talked about her and Dad in my sermons, telling how they wanted to be missionaries to Tibet but could not, how they won souls all of their lives, how Mom always tried to help people, and how Dad faithfully preached the Gospel for 60 years. Why in the world would I think the Alzheimer's (another disease that "healers" never heal) that took Dad or whatever took Mom to be a cruel enemy? These illnesses took them to Heaven!! Praise the Lord!

I also lost my mother to cancer! Yes, we do live in a fallen world..sickness and death being a part of that. But that does not prove that God does not want to heal...because as you said our parents were relieved of their corrupt bodies..but one day they will receive a body that will not be corrupt from this world...praise God!

My mother did not believe that healing was for today..She never went to the elders either!

Also why was it that Jesus said he came to heal if it was not his will to heal?

God's will is for all to be saved too! But are all saved?

 

[John of Japan]

Also why was it that Jesus said he came to heal if it was not his will to heal?

Where in the Bible in particular are you referring to?

God's will is for all to be saved too! But are all saved?

This is part and parcel of the theological error you are making. You are equating physical healing with the salvation of the soul. It is clear from many Scriptures that the salvation of the soul is far, far more important than the healing of the body, yet you are speaking of them as if they were equal in importance. They are certainly not. (Note that I am not accusing you of thinking the soul and body are equal. I don't know what you think. I am simply commenting on how you are linking the soul and body.)

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt. 10:28).

"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Matt. 16:26).

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" (Mark 8:36).