Isaiah 9:10 - The Harbinger - God's Judgment on America?

I have read part of the book and seen the movie. It is eye-opening to say the least.

 

http://www.thebereancall.org/content/harbinger-matter-critical-discernment

 

I think it is the epitome of arrogance to equate the United States with God's chosen people Israel.

I watched this video with Cahn being interviewed by Sid Roth. I found it be a mixture of exaggeration, stretches, misapplication of scripture, and false prophecy.

The Berean Call article was excellent.

 

Was it wrong for America to want to rebuild after 9/11?

 

I agree with CK, and agreed with the link I posted.

America is not a special covenant nation with God. Even if you argue that a nation doesn't have be in covenant like Israel; any nation that sins will suffer the same fate; still, the focus on America makes it seem either special, like other nations aren't sinning just as much or more (as we are specifying America as where this is happening), and especially that America must have been less sinful in its founding (and thus "prospered" as a "blessing" by God for it), which is not true
(and which has always been my concern. All of these "judgment on America" polemics are based on focusing on only SOME sins; especially sexual and regarding reverence or lack of to God, as determining a nation's standing before God. But there were TEN Commandments, not just two or three, and we don't get to pick and choose which ones God punishes for. To do so is to do the same exact thing as everyone else who reject the two commandments we focus on! But we're the ones who should know better! James 2:10, 11 speaks right to this issue; even down to the sins that people think determine one's righteousness or guilt).

The truth is, all nations are equally sinful, and continue exist only by grace!

I used to listen to Johnathan Cahn, and really liked him on his radio show "The Two Nice Jewish Boys" years ago. I used to make special attempt to listen to him in person and shake his hand every year, in the annual "Big Splash" event in New Jersey.
So I'm surprised he's taking scriptures to interpret modern political events, now. He used to stay out of politics and focus on the Gospel.

As Hunt says, there may be similarities (or "parallels"), but we cannot just be tearing these passages out of their original context, to apply them to America. This is the same exact thing the date-setters do. Camping, the Korean group (1992), the 1988 guy, and even cults like Armstrong and the JW's earlier on. With many convincing arguments about symbols and events in Israel in scripture that seemed so much like "more than co-incidence" when applied to our time. And none of them ever came to pass. Cahn is just leaving out any exact Second-coming date, but it's the same exact method.

With all the talk about "America", most of the people doing this preaching against it are apart of America. But they think it's everyone else in America, while they are God's spokesmen to call everyone else back in line. While this is included in the Biblical paradigm of Israel (OT prophets, and NT Christ and the Church), I think stretching it to ourselves now to this extent has blinded people into finding scriptures to vindicate their own pet issues they are unhappy with the country or world about (even if some of them might be legitimate evils; still, our focus on some of them to the near exclusion of others is what makes it "pet"); and I had fallen to this myself (though my issues were different, and I focused more on conservative and past sins, rather than liberals and present sins).

But in a sinful world, everyone will be unhappy with something (and everyone wants some sort of "freebies"; i.e. more than they have actually "earned"), and in our natures, look to blame others. That's what everyone is doing, but if those who claim to be on God's side are truly "different" from others about anything; it should be in recognizing the sinfulness (manifest through bad behavior or wrong beliefs) of all men; not just some groups.

Michael Horton's Beyond Culture Wars (don't even know if it's still in print, and was followed up by one called Christless Christianity) is an excellent treatment of the issue.

 

The fact remains that a nation will not survive with the following happening:

1. Anything goes sexuality
2. a total disregard for life...be it unborn, the aged, the infirm, or otherwise deemed lesser classes
3. Spiritual adultery
4. An economic system that is based on social injustice
5. Massive national debt


Do we see that in the history of Israel? A reading of Isaiah says yes.
Do we see that other nations in history? Yes. Look at ancient Greece and the Roman empire as examples.

In regards to this discussion:
Whether or not you think God has blessed America as a special people does not matter much.
Whether or not you think America has somehow replaced Israel does not matter much.

What lessons do we learn from history?
What correlation do we see in America today?
Do we believe God warns nations other than Israel? A reading of Jonah tells me yes.

 

I did listen to this video, and now I remember we did listen to his 9-11 messages right after the attack, plus I'm addressing the whole problem this is falling into, of contextualizing prophecies for biblical Israel to a modern nation. And 9-11 was political; and Christians' "warnings" to America also involve politics (political decisions deemed "the nation's choices"; doesn't have to be about a party or president), so that's what I meant by that term.

 

This is a huge issue in my mind. God's only covenant nation was Biblical Israel. It is presumptive for any other nation to think that God deals with them the same was He did with Israel.

 

I read the book, and still have not completely finalized what I "really believe" about it.
While I can't swear that 9/11 was a judgement from God, I'm even more reluctant to say It's NOT!

That being said, I question how the average Christian (true Christian) would ever know that this scripture applied to the USA; what with the hidden clues re: trees, buildings etc that the person not at all familiar with that area would ever grasp?

Still, the author makes some pertinent points that really make me wonder----????

 

Well said.

I've read the book, watched the DVD, and have done some further research on the Internet. Additionally, our church has done a Bible study based on the book/dvd.

Whether reading this book or reading the scriptures, it's sad that so few learn from history. The more I study the Bible, the more parallels between today and yesterday become apparent. It seems that any parallel brought up for discussion is greeted with naysayers. Which is, in itself, another form of history repeating itself, right here on BB and elsewhere.

Today, my only question is how many more times will history repeat itself before God calls a halt to the repetitions? Only He knows the answer to that now. One glorious sunrise and we'll all know the answer, too.

 

Reading the book right now. And for all the naysayers, there simply aren't that many coincidences in the world. There's so much that has happened with the United States that directly parallels what took place with Israel that one would have to be darn near brain dead to deny it.:laugh:

So I often find myself asking, when people are so against accepting the OBVIOUS truth, why?Is there a deep rooted fear about what is about to take place? So much so that even God's people will ignore the obvious?

 

In a couple years you will be able to pick this up in the 99 cent bargain bin at your favorite bookstore along with all the other failed prophetic books.

 

Let me go on record here agreeing with my brother. Let's check it our in 4-5 years.

God did not make an Israel like covenant with America - end of application 'coincidences' or not.

Can we learn from past errors? Sure.
Can any nation boldly claim to be equal to God's people Israel? No.