Isaiah 9:10 - The Harbinger - God's Judgment on America?

[Zaac]

The United States is no more special in God's eyes that any other country.

Apparently it is as He has blessed the country like no other.

It is presumptuous to think that George Washington could invoke God's blessing on the nation in the same way that God established a covenant with Abraham. Only God can institute a covenant - no man, not even Abraham, had that power.

No one said that he invoked a covenant. He consecrated the nation unto God in the same way that people consecrate their children unto God.

It's obvious that as a leader, George Washington understood the principles of Scripture and how corporate, national submission to God would benefit the nation.

Surely the new president of a secular state not have any more power than Abraham' father of God's chosen people did.

And why not? Though no one said that he did. But whether he did or not, the EXACT same things that took place with that other country(Israel) consecrated unto God by King Solomon are the EXACT same things that are taking place in the United States which was also consecrated unto God.

Are they any church age principles for God blessing secular nations?

Yep. It's stated in Matthew 5:45 That you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

 

[Zaac]

You don't know your American history very well, if you can make a statement like that.

I know it well enough to know that apparently in God's eyes, we've never done so before as He has never allowed our place of consecration unto Him to be struck before.

The covenant between God and Israel was initiated by God. There's no way George Washington could simply, by prayer, invoke a similar one without God's approval or offer.

We're speaking of the nation being consecrated unto God in the same manner as Israel was consecrated unto the Lord by King Solomon. If I have said covenant, my apologies. But like King Solomon, George Washington consecrated the country unto the Lord.

 

[InTheLight]

Apparently it is as He has blessed the country like no other.

Switzerland, anyone?

 

[Zaac]

Where in the Bible does it describe the interest rate of the currency of Israel being adjusted in defiance of the consequences of the Assyrian attack?


Quote from author Jonathan Cahn:
In the days after 9/11, the Federal Reserve slashed the base interest rate in an attempt to defy the consequences of the attacks. That action put us on the path leading to the collapse of the American economy seven years later.

The slashing of interest rates was just another act of defiance against God just as had been the response of Israel in their attack. That slashing is depictive of man's "we can fix it ourselves" attitude. When the issue is spiritual, not economic.

I wouldn't characterize the recession of 2007-2009 as the "economic collapse of the U.S."

It wasn't. It was a warning of what was to come if the country does not return to God. The end result will be the destruction of the country as we know it brought about by a complete economic collapse.

I haven't read the book, but if the message is that America needs to repent to avoid further judgment I will simply say that the call to repentance has gone out before, first by John the Baptist, then by Jesus himself, then by the apostles.

Given to INDIVIDUALS.

It is a given. But now we need a sensational book to actually achieve that purpose? I think this guy is trying to sell books.

I don't know what his purpose is. But he hasn't said anything in the book that's SCRIPTURALLY untrue.

I also agree with others that object to substituting America for Israel as the only nations being blessed by God.

Who said that?

 

[Zaac]

Switzerland, anyone?

Right because we all know that Switzerland has the same economic and military might as the United States.

Yes, we all know that Switzerland's blessings have made her wealthy and free enough to evangelize the world.

We all recognize that the economy of the world hinges on Switzerland's economy.

We all know that Switzerland is a member of the G8.

Please try again.

 

[InTheLight]

The slashing of interest rates was just another act of defiance against God just as had been the response of Israel in their attack. That slashing is depictive of man's "we can fix it ourselves" attitude. When the issue is spiritual, not economic.

You're reaching. You said the response of the U.S. is EXACTLY the same response as Israel's. You say the U.S. is the most blessed nation on earth, which is an economic statement. You say the U.S. slashing interest rates is an act of defiance to God. You want to believe "The Harbinger" so badly that you will mix up literal and metaphorical statements when it suits you.

It wasn't. It was a warning of what was to come if the country does not return to God.

Jonathan Cahn said the U.S. economy collapsed in 2008:

In the days after 9/11, the Federal Reserve slashed the base interest rate in an attempt to defy the consequences of the attacks. That action put us on the path leading to the collapse of the American economy seven years later.

The end result will be the destruction of the country as we know it brought about by a complete economic collapse.

Yep, you have said "it's right around the corner..."

Given to INDIVIDUALS.

Precisely. That's the New Covenant, or the New Testament. Individuals repent, individuals are bestowed God's grace, not nations.

I don't know what his purpose is. But he hasn't said anything in the book that's SCRIPTURALLY untrue.

"Israel and the U.S. are the only two nations to be blessed by God."

Who said that?

Jonathan Cahn, Page 19, The Harbinger.

Let's look at the Bible. Psalm 147: 19-20

19 He declares His word to Jacob,
His statutes and His judgments to Israel.
20 He has not dealt thus with any nation;
And as for His judgments, they have not known them.

Praise the Lord!

 

[Zaac]

You're reaching.

It's not reaching. It's you not understanding. :laugh:

You said the response of the U.S. is EXACTLY the same response as Israel's.

It was. After their attack, they defiantly vowed to rebuild bigger and stronger. The United States did the same thing. Slashing the interest rates was part of that defiance to come back and rebuild bigger and stronger.

You say the U.S. is the most blessed nation on earth, which is an economic statement.

It's a spiritual statement.

You say the U.S. slashing interest rates is an act of defiance to God. You want to believe "The Harbinger" so badly that you will mix up literal and metaphorical statements when it suits you

.

Ain't nothing mixed up except your interpretation of what you think I said. And the previous "which is an economic statement" testifies as such. You're consistent for saying something and then proceeding to talk against what you said as though I said it.

Jonathan Cahn said the U.S. economy collapsed in 2008:

In the days after 9/11, the Federal Reserve slashed the base interest rate in an attempt to defy the consequences of the attacks. That action put us on the path leading to the collapse of the American economy seven years later.

It did collapse. He said a collapse. I said a COMPLETE economic collapse. The COMPLETE economic collapse is still to come.

Yep, you have said "it's right around the corner..."

I have said "what" is right around the corner?

Precisely. That's the New Covenant, or the New Testament. Individuals repent, individuals are bestowed God's grace, not nations.

Yet you see no where in Scripture that says NATIONS aren't bestowed God's grace. What Scripture shows is that nations were previously bestowed with God's grace and that there is nothing that shows where that national blessing ceased.

"Israel and the U.S. are the only two nations to be blessed by God."



Jonathan Cahn, Page 19, The Harbinger.

Not sure where you're getting that but page 19 of the book doesn't say any such thing.

Let's look at the Bible. Psalm 147: 19-20

19 He declares His word to Jacob,
His statutes and His judgments to Israel.
20 He has not dealt thus with any nation;
And as for His judgments, they have not known them.

Praise the Lord!

And what exactly are you trying to say that this says?

 

[InTheLight]

"Israel and the U.S. are the only two nations to be blessed by God."

Not sure where you're getting that but page 19 of the book doesn't say any such thing.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

The ideas portrayed here show the dangers of reconstructionism and dominionism. The elevation of the US to 'favoured' nation status with God has no basis in scripture and is instead based on prideful excessive nationalism that confuses theology and patriotism.

 

[Zaac]

???

Still not sure how from that you get that Israel and the United States are the only two nations to be blessed by God.

The paragraph you posted is in reference to them being conceived and dedicated at their foundations to God.

 

[Zaac]

The ideas portrayed here show the dangers of reconstructionism and dominionism. The elevation of the US to 'favoured' nation status with God has no basis in scripture and is instead based on prideful excessive nationalism that confuses theology and patriotism.

It appears that some may be trying so hard to not reconstruct and dominionize that they're ignoring the exact parallels between what took place in Israel and what's taking place in the United States.

 

[InTheLight]

Right because we all know that Switzerland has the same economic and military might as the United States.

Yes, we all know that Switzerland's blessings have made her wealthy and free enough to evangelize the world.

We all recognize that the economy of the world hinges on Switzerland's economy.

We all know that Switzerland is a member of the G8.

Please try again.

So, according to you, God's blessings on a nation are being an economic and military power.

Percent of population below poverty line
U.S. 15.1%
Switzerland 6.8%

Unemployment rate
U.S. 8.0%
Switzerland 2.8%

Budget Surplus
U.S. -8.7% of GDP
Switzerland +0.6% of GDP

Inflation rate
U.S. 3.1%
Switzerland 0.2%


Considering the average person living in either of these countries, which one is 'more blessed'? Looks to me like Switzerland with its economy being much more efficient. Plus, they don't get involved in fighting wars and live in fear of having their young people killed in a war.

 

[InTheLight]

It's not reaching. It's you not understanding.

I guess I'm not as blessed as you since I don't have the special revelation from God to understand.

YOU may not have any idea, but I certainly do. Again, YOU may not know. But I do. I got His revelation so I know His mind, His purposes and His plan.

:BangHead:

You say the U.S. is the most blessed nation on earth, which is an economic statement.

It's a spiritual statement.

You wrote this:

Right because we all know that Switzerland has the same economic and military might as the United States.

Yes, we all know that Switzerland's blessings have made her wealthy and free enough to evangelize the world.

We all recognize that the economy of the world hinges on Switzerland's economy.

We all know that Switzerland is a member of the G8.

That sure looks like an economic statement to me.

Ain't nothing mixed up except your interpretation of what you think I said. And the previous "which is an economic statement" testifies as such. You're consistent for saying something and then proceeding to talk against what you said as though I said it.

:laugh: We've got eyes, we can read what you said about Switzerland falling short of God's blessing in the economic departments.

It did collapse. He said a collapse.

The United States economy collapsed in 2008? That is your assertion.

I have said "what" is right around the corner?

You said the full collapse of the United States economy was right around the corner. Help me out....in 2008 was it an economic collapse, an economic meltdown, a near economic collapse....what? Considering you posted this two days ago. Please make up your mind.

The 2008 economic meltdown was a direct result of our practices resulting from 9/11.

Did we get it? No. In marked defiance we continue to set out to fix it our way never once acknowledging that this is spiritual.

So a near economic collapse didn't turn us back to God. SO rest assured that a FULL economic collapse is on the way.

That can be found here: http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1928785&postcount=16

Yet you see no where in Scripture that says NATIONS aren't bestowed God's grace.

Great--an argument from absence of evidence.

Not sure where you're getting that but page 19 of the book doesn't say any such thing.

The book says that Israel and America are the only two nations blessed by God.

"Israel was unique among nations..."

and

"But there was one other one...America."


Continuing on page 19:

Seems pretty definitively stated to me--the author is saying Israel and America are the only nations blessed by God.

 

[LadyEagle]

Oh, for pity's sake. If you can't see that this nation has been blessed by God since it's founding, you are not very aware, ITL.

More inventions in technology, medicine, science, nearly every aspect, has it's roots in the United States. Many have been enabled to use their gifts to create wealth, as well as to enrich our daily lives.

We are blessed beyond measure with natural resources, everything we need to live comfortably. Even the poor among us are rich compared to the other populations of the world.

You narrowly pick out the economy and military based on the present time. But look back through history and you will see God's blessings poured out on this nation.

The old songwriters even knew it - "God shed His Grace on thee." "Thine alabaster cities gleam, undimmed by human tears." That was true for centuries until God permitted 09/11 to happen. And, yes, God permitted it. His umbrella of protection on this nation was here until that fateful day. God permitted it to try to get our attention.

Why should God NOT want to judge/punish this nation? We have kicked Bible reading and prayer from our schools and allowed socialists and atheists to educate our children. We have kicked the 10 Commandments out of the public square, and even the nativity scene. We have forgotten our roots and the principles on which this nation was founded. Our coins say "In God We Trust" but as a nation, we no longer trust God, we trust our politicians. We kill over 4000 of our unborn per day. We have allowed Hollywood to teach us our morality. Our pulpits preach empty words to make us feel good without repentence.

The Harbinger is a warning - take it or leave it - and I knew when I posted this, there would be the naysayers, just as there were in Noah's day, before the Judgment of God.

If you can't see how God has blessed America through the years, more so than any other nation on this earth, then you have scales on your eyes.

God has blessed other nations as well, but THIS nation, the United States of America, was dedicated to God as evidenced by the Mayflower Compact, and again dedicated to God by the very first President, as is pointed out in the DVD.

In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, defender of the Faith, etc.

Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic; for our better ordering, and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience.

In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the 11th of November, in the year of the reign of our Sovereign Lord King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth, 1620

But, judgment from God is coming - when all is said and done, God will judge ALL nations.

Joel 3:2 "I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land."

 

[TadQueasy]

:laugh: Wow, so LE is now like Noah by posting this thread...

 

[LadyEagle]

:laugh: Wow, so LE is now like Noah by posting this thread...

You give me too much credit, but I appreciate your concern. Back on topic, thanks. :flower:

 

[Zaac]

Oh, for pity's sake. If you can't see that this nation has been blessed by God since it's founding, you are not very aware, ITL.

More inventions in technology, medicine, science, nearly every aspect, has it's roots in the United States. Many have been enabled to use their gifts to create wealth, as well as to enrich our daily lives.

We are blessed beyond measure with natural resources, everything we need to live comfortably. Even the poor among us are rich compared to the other populations of the world.

You narrowly pick out the economy and military based on the present time. But look back through history and you will see God's blessings poured out on this nation.

The old songwriters even knew it - "God shed His Grace on thee." "Thine alabaster cities gleam, undimmed by human tears." That was true for centuries until God permitted 09/11 to happen. And, yes, God permitted it. His umbrella of protection on this nation was here until that fateful day. God permitted it to try to get our attention.

Why should God NOT want to judge/punish this nation? We have kicked Bible reading and prayer from our schools and allowed socialists and atheists to educate our children. We have kicked the 10 Commandments out of the public square, and even the nativity scene. We have forgotten our roots and the principles on which this nation was founded. Our coins say "In God We Trust" but as a nation, we no longer trust God, we trust our politicians. We kill over 4000 of our unborn per day. We have allowed Hollywood to teach us our morality. Our pulpits preach empty words to make us feel good without repentence.

The Harbinger is a warning - take it or leave it - and I knew when I posted this, there would be the naysayers, just as there were in Noah's day, before the Judgment of God.

If you can't see how God has blessed America through the years, more so than any other nation on this earth, then you have scales on your eyes.

God has blessed other nations as well, but THIS nation, the United States of America, was dedicated to God as evidenced by the Mayflower Compact, and again dedicated to God by the very first President, as is pointed out in the DVD.

Well said post LadyE. I guess there are just some who won't accept what's right in front of them no matter how many times it pokes them in the eyes.

Kinda reminds me of all the prophecies that Jesus Christ fulfilled that only He could and yet the Jews still rejected Him as "The One".

But, judgment from God is coming - when all is said and done, God will judge ALL nations.

Joel 3:2 "I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land."

:thumbsup: He sure will. I think there is a lot of unspoken fear even in Christians when we speak of things that show that these are the last days or when we speak of Scripture that shows what will become of the United States if we don't return to God.

 

[InTheLight]

Oh, for pity's sake. If you can't see that this nation has been blessed by God since it's founding, you are not very aware, ITL.

Go back and read what I wrote. I am objecting to the idea that Israel and the USA are the ONLY nations God has blessed. I freely admit and enjoy the fact that God has blessed America.

You narrowly pick out the economy and military based on the present time.

The economy and military was Zaac's definition of being blessed. As such he was contending that the U.S. is most blessed because of our stature in these areas.

Why should God NOT want to judge/punish this nation?

<snip list>

God may very well be judging this nation. I don't see how one verse pulled out of the Old Testament has any bearing on his actions.

The Harbinger is a warning - take it or leave it - and I knew when I posted this, there would be the naysayers, just as there were in Noah's day, before the Judgment of God.

As far as I know by reading this thread the naysayers are not denying that the U.S. is straying from God's ways and is worthy of judgment, I think the naysayers are saying they don't agree with Jonathan Cahn's theory that America has a covenant with God. It's one thing to say that America has a covenant with God, it's quite another to say that God views America EXACTLY as He viewed Israel.

Psalm 147:19 He declares His word to Jacob,
His statutes and His judgments to Israel.
20 He has not dealt thus with any nation;
And as for His judgments, they have not known them

Furthermore, Isaiah 9:10 is NOT a prophecy about America. It's about Israel and it's been fulfilled.

God is NOT calling out specifically to America to repent, he has called all to repentance and He will judge the world, not just America.

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained.

If you can't see how God has blessed America through the years, more so than any other nation on this earth, then you have scales on your eyes.

I don't deny it. I affirm it. I deny The Harbinger's claim that ONLY the USA and Israel have been blessed. I also reject the idea that the USA has 'replaced' Israel as God's favored nation.

God has blessed other nations as well,

Aha! Yes!

But, judgment from God is coming - when all is said and done, God will judge ALL nations.

Joel 3:2 "I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land."

Yes. Agreed. I don't see America being singled out.

 

[InTheLight]

Well said post LadyE. I guess there are just some who won't accept what's right in front of them no matter how many times it pokes them in the eyes.

Well no, I won't accept that God has adopted the U.S. as his chosen people. No, I will not accept that Isaiah 9:10 was written as a prophecy about the U.S. No, I will not accept that only the U.S. and Israel have been blessed by God. No, I will not accept that America has some favored status among nations as compared to Christians in any other nation.

Kinda reminds me of all the prophecies that Jesus Christ fulfilled that only He could and yet the Jews still rejected Him as "The One".

Ya see, there ya go again going off on some judgmental tangent. Rejecting some author's wild ideas about Isaiah 9:10 is NOT the same as someone rejecting the prophecies of Jesus being Messiah.

This is another example of you conflating one issue with another. They are not comparable.

 

[Zaac]

Go back and read what I wrote. I am objecting to the idea that Israel and the USA are the ONLY nations God has blessed. I freely admit and enjoy the fact that God has blessed America.

ITL, am I missing something? You keep saying that and I keep looking back at the excerpt you posted and it says nothing about Israel and the US being the only nations God has blessed.

The economy and military was Zaac's definition of being blessed. As such he was contending that the U.S. is most blessed because of our stature in these areas.

No I wasn't. We have stature in those areas because we are blessed not the other way around.

<snip list>

God may very well be judging this nation. I don't see how one verse pulled out of the Old Testament has any bearing on his actions.

No one said it had any bearing on His actions. His actions will be what they will. But His actions against the US are exactly paralleling His actions toward Israel.

As far as I know by reading this thread the naysayers are not denying that the U.S. is straying from God's ways and is worthy of judgment, I think the naysayers are saying they don't agree with Jonathan Cahn's theory that America has a covenant with God. It's one thing to say that America has a covenant with God, it's quite another to say that God views America EXACTLY as He viewed Israel.

Covenant or not, God is dealing with the United States in the EXACT same manner that He dealt with Israel.

Psalm 147:19 He declares His word to Jacob,
His statutes and His judgments to Israel.
20 He has not dealt thus with any nation;
And as for His judgments, they have not known them

Furthermore, Isaiah 9:10 is NOT a prophecy about America. It's about Israel and it's been fulfilled.

And as I said, the 10 Commandments weren't given to you or me either. And as surely as the 9:10 prophecy has been fulfilled, the EXACTNESS with which it is being fulfilled again should wake some folks up.

God is NOT calling out specifically to America to repent, he has called all to repentance and He will judge the world, not just America.

And you know this how? The fact that the United States is following in the exact same footsteps as did Israel seems to speak to a different conclusion than the one you've reached as far as God not calling America to repent.

I don't deny it. I affirm it. I deny The Harbinger's claim that ONLY the USA and Israel have been blessed. I also reject the idea that the USA has 'replaced' Israel as God's favored nation.

You're still gonna have to show me where this was said.