Isaiah 9:10 - The Harbinger - God's Judgment on America?

You're once again arguing something that hasn't been said at least not that I can find. :laugh:

We don't compare individuals to nations or the contrary.

Sure it is. The man gave Scripture showing the US fulfilling the very same prophecies that Israel fulfilled before its destruction. And because yall don't want it to be true, you're dismissing it even though it's taking place right before your eyes.

The Jews rejected Jesus the same way. He fulfilled every prophecy of the coming Messiah but they didn't want it to be so, and they summarily rejected Him.

This is another example of you not being able to see the obvious because of your bias.

 

Are you a sabbatarian? Who we used to have a lot of here years ago). The fourth commandment is the sabbath, from sundown Fri to sundown Sat, not Sunday. Yet most do not believe that applies to Christians. Yet some do, and insist we're all in disobedience, because whatever God said to Israel He says to us, and "He changes not". There are people who have all sorts of restrictions on music in Church based on different "principles". That's a word tossed around a lot by those who like to rise up, and mine scripture for some arguing point to render everyone else as out of god's will, or whatever.

Wasn't Washington ultimately a Mason? (Even though he may have been affiliated with various churches)> There were many people who were "culturally" Christian, but believed all sorts of unorthodox things. But it seems that goes right out the window when trying to prove America was "chosen", and was so much better back then. Yeah; I wonder how he and others like Jefferson would have fared under the divinely enforced Law if America was really the new Israel!

And where does the notion of the attackers being "Assyrians" come from? They were Arabs, who in scripture were Ishmael, not Asshur.

This is precisely why I question these methods of interpretations. You have to bend and stretch things and people to get them to fit. Like I used to think America's real position in prophecy was the "second beast" of Rev. 13 (the lamb-like dragon), and that our right/left wing system were the two horns. This I got from the SDA's, and they had a lot of such prophecies that were being "fulfilled". You can plug in anything anywhere and tweak it all to fit. It's been done countless times, and Camping kept saying the same things; that all these clues added up, and everyone was just being stubborn ignoring God's message. The Maya prediction for this year was similar (only not using scripture), as was Nostradamus' stuff.

There are many people who will mimic something like that, or it was just a natural reaction that they did in Israel, and other nations in the same situation would do the same thing, but in Israel's case, it had apocalyptic significance.


Also, about the "blessings", this is a purely materialistic viewpoint, as much as "materialism" is supposed to be one of the sins these prophets are pronouncing judgment at. The proof the nation was blessed was all our material wealth, and technology, etc. Whatever happened to the godly "suffering" while the wicked prosper? Talk about "letting Hollywood teach us", aren't they the ones who believe wealth is everything; one's entire worth? We seem to think just like them!

That was one promise given as part of the covenant with Israel. It was contingent on Israel keeping its end of the covenant. When the nation didn't, all of those promises were spiritualized, including the very nation itself (Matt. 21:43, 1 Pet. 2:9). It was made clear that "by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal 2:16), and then the godly (following Christ) were often persecuted. All of this has been turned on its ear now. Yet again, it goes to show that a lot of the prosperity was more in line with Rome (and the relative prosperity apostate Israel had under Rome in Christ's time) than with Old Covenant Israel. A gentile nation which had the most power in the world, just like all the others. The only difference was that it was culturally Christian instead of officially pagan (and even Rome became "Christian" later on, and similarly thought itself the new Kingdom).

 

The book says that Israel and America are the only two nations blessed by God.

"Israel was unique among nations..."

and

"But there was one other one...America."

Go back and read the excerpts from page 19 that I posted.

 

I did go back and re-read it. It doesn't say anything about the US and Israel being the only two nations blessed by God that I can find in the book.

Is there some place else to which you were referring?

 

I'm called to keep every day holy so yes, I guess that makes me a sabbatarian.

Point?

Who said anything about proving America was chosen? America was chosen to do certain things otherwise they wouldn't have taken place.:laugh:

The Assyrians were "children of the Middle East" as Assyria covered a nice chunk of the Arabian peninsula and the rest of the Middle East. This is the same area from which the 9/11 terrorists came.

 

Actually; no; for that's one of the lines of reasoning used by those who are not sabbatarian. That's what I was taught (I had been a sabbatarian for a time when I first became Christian, and it was pointed out that Matt. 5, if extended to the sabbath would mean every day should be kept "holy" to Him, which means keeping a day holy is not about ceasing from work; hence that part of the Law has been fulfilled and no longer binding in the "letter").

Point is, you're similarly taking "principles" you read about in the OT and trying to extend them to a modern nation, and it doesn't work.

That you're trying to extend "principles" in place of any clear scriptural implications of America as being under the same covenantal promises as Israel, but when people try to extend many of these "principles" like that, you end up with all sorts of teachings; many outright heretical.

For those promises of prosperity for obedience and punishment for disobedience to apply to America, it would have to be "the chosen" nation, as those promises were apart of the covenant God made with the nation He "chose".

But the people are still different (Ishmael, not Asshur), so you can't call them the Assyrians. If anything, Assyrians were supposed to be "the people of the North", while the Arabs were the people of the South. I've seen other interpretations that claimed the Roman Empire were the Assyrians. Especially the preterist view, which applies all prophecy to 1st century Israel and the Church. You can't just move any other group of people into the slot (just because they seem to fill the role).

 

It OBVIOUSLY works as God is doing the EXACT same thing and the United States is responding the EXACT same way as Israel did. Not really sure why y'all have a problem with this. It just is what it is. And what it is is that the US is under judgment just as Israel was.

Umm, didn't anyone say we were under the same covenantal promises. The same principles however do apply.

Well either you're wrong or God is playing games because it's playing out exactly the same.

Sure can as the Assyrian empire covered the majority of the area.

The scoffers will believe what they want to believe. But the United States is STILL repeating the same things that Israel did and the result will be the same.

 

I don't have the book so I don't have access to it. Would you please list the things that America is doing EXACTLY the same way that Israel did? Perhaps I can then comment.

 

The US is responding exactly the way PEOPLE do. Which of course is what Israel had done. All it is is common defiance. All of man has this tendency.

In order for these “principles” to carry overEXCLUSIVELY to America like that (apparently the only nation being held to this “obedience=prosperity; disobedience=defeat” promise), it would have to be a special covenant nation. Either God holds the entire world to that principle, or He's still deally specially with nations, or maybe it's simply the age of Grace, and God is focusing more on individuals and not on nations anymore; for nations consist of individuals, and one soul cannot be judged or justified in place of another (which is what happens in corporate judgment).

Because you're scratching up the details that suit this theory, and bending others to fit.

Sorry, but you can't just reassign a prophetic identity like that without more of a biblical basis. You could get any symbol to be any nation like that.
For one thing, the nation you claim “Assyria” is punishing now is not even over there in the mideast. The whole point of “Assyria” was that it was a neighboring nation.

 

People are trying to wrest a scripture written about Israel and applying it to the United States. No one can understand why.

 

God is not judging America. He said "Peace on earth, goodwill toward men" ushering in a new way that He would deal with men and nations. There will be a day after all thing come to pass.

 

I'm reading the book. I'm maybe halfway through it and find it interesting. I didn't know there was a DVD and would like to get that too!

But honestly I felt that America was at least in danger of falling into Judgment by God long before I even heard of the book. I can see parallels between the US and Rome, or Greece, or Israel, and all fell after a period of decadence.

I find the quotes said by politicians in regard to 911 and rebuilding the towers, and biblical scripture to be fascinating. It seems that without realizing it, these powerful people are quoting scripture. :type:

 

Exactly, and I can't for the life of me figure out why this thread is stickied to the top.

 

I wouldn't find it necessary to watch this DVD. I've heard it all before. One of the greatest evils that threaten the true Church of Christ is the belief that somehow Christianity and American patriotism go together. There is absolutely no Biblical support for this lie. Many people in the church worship America and especially the Republican party more than they worship God.

 

We may share similar feelings, my friend. I don't believe that we have seen judgment in the U.S.A. so far, but I feel that with "AIDS", natural disasters, economic collapse, and other maladies which are affecting this nation, we are getting a whipping which the Bible calls chastisement. It is what a loving parent administers to his wayward children to get them back in line.

I heard it said by someone else, that when God gave us Obama, he didn't give us what we needed but what we deserve.

 

I'm not so sure that the Great Pretender is chastisement, as I don't believe any nation or people group comes under judgment in the church age. I think we've got a Marxist president because that is the direction the country has drifted, and it has been a slow deliberate move in that direction, orchestrated by those who have been trying to take the U.S. in this direction for over a hundred years.

But judgment simply does not come until Jesus' Rapture of the church. In the gospels, He made it clear that in this age, the concern is for the individual soul, not the nation as a whole.

LUke 13, NASB
1 Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4 "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." ​

I am convinced He tells us here to take our focus off the nations, and put it squarely on our command to evangelize the world, one person at a time.

 

Notice the instruction Jesus gave us when we listen to the prophets for direction: "16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

And then on the mountain when Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus. The Father makes it clear to listen to the Son, not the Law and the Prophets.

And yet we have yet to be fulfilled prophecies in Daniel and elsewhere.

And you cannot deny that the Hebrew Holy day of Elul 29 has matched perfectly Sept 17-01, the day the New York Stock Exchange crashed as the first direct hit after the towers.

7 years later to the day it happened again, Sept 29-08 or 29th of Elul, 5768

Sept 13th of 2015 is the next. 29 Elul was the day all debts in Israel were forgiven. It was in the 7th year, year of rest.

It is definitely a supernatural happening whether we think it's God or Satan, but it has to be one or the other.

At the end the Prophet said ALL nations will be against Israel. Either America will be against Israel, or we will no longer exist.