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Isaiah 9:10 - The Harbinger - God's Judgment on America?

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Zaac

Well-Known Member
Well no, I won't accept that God has adopted the U.S. as his chosen people. No, I will not accept that Isaiah 9:10 was written as a prophecy about the U.S. No, I will not accept that only the U.S. and Israel have been blessed by God.

You're once again arguing something that hasn't been said at least not that I can find. :laugh:

No, I will not accept that America has some favored status among nations as compared to Christians in any other nation.

We don't compare individuals to nations or the contrary.



Ya see, there ya go again going off on some judgmental tangent. Rejecting some author's wild ideas about Isaiah 9:10 is NOT the same as someone rejecting the prophecies of Jesus being Messiah.

Sure it is. The man gave Scripture showing the US fulfilling the very same prophecies that Israel fulfilled before its destruction. And because yall don't want it to be true, you're dismissing it even though it's taking place right before your eyes.

The Jews rejected Jesus the same way. He fulfilled every prophecy of the coming Messiah but they didn't want it to be so, and they summarily rejected Him.

This is another example of you conflating one issue with another. They are not comparable.

This is another example of you not being able to see the obvious because of your bias.
 

Eric B

Active Member
Site Supporter
No it doesn't. That's just YOUR assumption. :laugh: The promise made to Israel was with Israel. But you guys act as if there is no precedent for the PRINCIPLES of God's word to be transferable to all.

The Ten Commandments were also given to Israel. Do we ignore that we, like Israel, are called to keep those commandments?

The word of God is ALIVE. It did not die after the events took place. As NONE of the stuff in the Bible happened to us, we MUST look at the principles of what took place and the application to our everyday existence or otherwise, it serves no purpose to even have the word.
Are you a sabbatarian? Who we used to have a lot of here years ago). The fourth commandment is the sabbath, from sundown Fri to sundown Sat, not Sunday. Yet most do not believe that applies to Christians. Yet some do, and insist we're all in disobedience, because whatever God said to Israel He says to us, and "He changes not". There are people who have all sorts of restrictions on music in Church based on different "principles". That's a word tossed around a lot by those who like to rise up, and mine scripture for some arguing point to render everyone else as out of god's will, or whatever.
What it suggests is that George Washington and those who founded the country profoundly understood Scripture and what the possibilities were for the nation that dedicated itself to keeping GOD first in the manner in which God had intended for Israel to do.

And on April 30, 1789 after his inauguration in New York City, the nation's THEN capital , George Washington addressed the first joint session of Congress and committed in prayer the United States of America's future to GOD.

The nation's leader consecrated the US unto the Lord just as King Solomon had done with Israel.

And where did this take place? In ST. Paul's Chapel right across from what is Ground Zero. And the actual land of Ground Zero is part of a field that used to belong to St. Paul's.

Yes, the modern day Assyrians attacked the United States in the same place in which George Washington consecrated her unto God. Coincidence? Nope.

The Assyrians struck the Temple Mount of Israel in King Solomon's day the exact same way. The Temple and the nation of Israel were dedicated to God by King Solomon. It was the place of Israel's national consecration just as ST. Paul's Chapel/Ground Zero was the place of the United States national consecration.

And as with Israel, the striking of the place in which the nation was consecrated is a sign that God has removed His hand of protection and allowed judgment to begin.

And one by one, and using the exact same words that the Israelites did after the Temple Mount was destroyed, America and her leaders are doing and saying THE EXACT SAME THINGS in defiance to God.

Why unless you question the precedence of God's word of what He does when a nation is consecrated unto Him.
Wasn't Washington ultimately a Mason? (Even though he may have been affiliated with various churches)> There were many people who were "culturally" Christian, but believed all sorts of unorthodox things. But it seems that goes right out the window when trying to prove America was "chosen", and was so much better back then. Yeah; I wonder how he and others like Jefferson would have fared under the divinely enforced Law if America was really the new Israel!
You're talking apples and oranges now as NONE of that brought about modern day Assyrians destroying the spot of the nation's consecration.
And where does the notion of the attackers being "Assyrians" come from? They were Arabs, who in scripture were Ishmael, not Asshur.

This is precisely why I question these methods of interpretations. You have to bend and stretch things and people to get them to fit. Like I used to think America's real position in prophecy was the "second beast" of Rev. 13 (the lamb-like dragon), and that our right/left wing system were the two horns. This I got from the SDA's, and they had a lot of such prophecies that were being "fulfilled". You can plug in anything anywhere and tweak it all to fit. It's been done countless times, and Camping kept saying the same things; that all these clues added up, and everyone was just being stubborn ignoring God's message. The Maya prediction for this year was similar (only not using scripture), as was Nostradamus' stuff.

Again, apples and oranges. The nation has never so fully turned away from God. And the nations place of consecration has never before been struck by "outsiders".

Looking at the principles of Scripture being transferable and applicable to ALL, the United States is doing EXACTLY what Israel did when the Temple Mount was destroyed. And unless we turn back to God, the end result will be the same.
There are many people who will mimic something like that, or it was just a natural reaction that they did in Israel, and other nations in the same situation would do the same thing, but in Israel's case, it had apocalyptic significance.


Also, about the "blessings", this is a purely materialistic viewpoint, as much as "materialism" is supposed to be one of the sins these prophets are pronouncing judgment at. The proof the nation was blessed was all our material wealth, and technology, etc. Whatever happened to the godly "suffering" while the wicked prosper? Talk about "letting Hollywood teach us", aren't they the ones who believe wealth is everything; one's entire worth? We seem to think just like them!

That was one promise given as part of the covenant with Israel. It was contingent on Israel keeping its end of the covenant. When the nation didn't, all of those promises were spiritualized, including the very nation itself (Matt. 21:43, 1 Pet. 2:9). It was made clear that "by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal 2:16), and then the godly (following Christ) were often persecuted. All of this has been turned on its ear now. Yet again, it goes to show that a lot of the prosperity was more in line with Rome (and the relative prosperity apostate Israel had under Rome in Christ's time) than with Old Covenant Israel. A gentile nation which had the most power in the world, just like all the others. The only difference was that it was culturally Christian instead of officially pagan (and even Rome became "Christian" later on, and similarly thought itself the new Kingdom).
 
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InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You're still gonna have to show me where this was said.

The book says that Israel and America are the only two nations blessed by God.

"Israel was unique among nations..."

and

"But there was one other one...America."

Go back and read the excerpts from page 19 that I posted.
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
The book says that Israel and America are the only two nations blessed by God.

"Israel was unique among nations..."

and

"But there was one other one...America."

Go back and read the excerpts from page 19 that I posted.

11cfat4.jpg

I did go back and re-read it. It doesn't say anything about the US and Israel being the only two nations blessed by God that I can find in the book.

Is there some place else to which you were referring?
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
Are you a sabbatarian? Who we used to have a lot of here years ago). The fourth commandment is the sabbath, from sundown Fri to sundown Sat, not Sunday. Yet most do not believe that applies to Christians.

I'm called to keep every day holy so yes, I guess that makes me a sabbatarian.

Yet some do, and insist we're all in disobedience, because whatever God said to Israel He says to us, and "He changes not". There are people who have all sorts of restrictions on music in Church based on different "principles". That's a word tossed around a lot by those who like to rise up, and mine scripture for some arguing point to render everyone else as out of god's will, or whatever.

Point?


Wasn't Washington ultimately a Mason? (Even though he may have been affiliated with various churches)> There were many people who were "culturally" Christian, but believed all sorts of unorthodox things. But it seems that goes right out the window when trying to prove America was "chosen", and was so much better back then. Yeah; I wonder how he and others like Jefferson would have fared under the divinely enforced Law if America was really the new Israel!

Who said anything about proving America was chosen? America was chosen to do certain things otherwise they wouldn't have taken place.:laugh:

And where does the notion of the attackers being "Assyrians" come from? They were Arabs, who in scripture were Ishmael, not Asshur.

The Assyrians were "children of the Middle East" as Assyria covered a nice chunk of the Arabian peninsula and the rest of the Middle East. This is the same area from which the 9/11 terrorists came.
 

Eric B

Active Member
Site Supporter
I'm called to keep every day holy so yes, I guess that makes me a sabbatarian.
Actually; no; for that's one of the lines of reasoning used by those who are not sabbatarian. That's what I was taught (I had been a sabbatarian for a time when I first became Christian, and it was pointed out that Matt. 5, if extended to the sabbath would mean every day should be kept "holy" to Him, which means keeping a day holy is not about ceasing from work; hence that part of the Law has been fulfilled and no longer binding in the "letter").

Point is, you're similarly taking "principles" you read about in the OT and trying to extend them to a modern nation, and it doesn't work.
That you're trying to extend "principles" in place of any clear scriptural implications of America as being under the same covenantal promises as Israel, but when people try to extend many of these "principles" like that, you end up with all sorts of teachings; many outright heretical.
Who said anything about proving America was chosen? America was chosen to do certain things otherwise they wouldn't have taken place.:laugh:
For those promises of prosperity for obedience and punishment for disobedience to apply to America, it would have to be "the chosen" nation, as those promises were apart of the covenant God made with the nation He "chose".
The Assyrians were "children of the Middle East" as Assyria covered a nice chunk of the Arabian peninsula and the rest of the Middle East. This is the same area from which the 9/11 terrorists came.
But the people are still different (Ishmael, not Asshur), so you can't call them the Assyrians. If anything, Assyrians were supposed to be "the people of the North", while the Arabs were the people of the South. I've seen other interpretations that claimed the Roman Empire were the Assyrians. Especially the preterist view, which applies all prophecy to 1st century Israel and the Church. You can't just move any other group of people into the slot (just because they seem to fill the role).
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
Actually; no; for that's one of the lines of reasoning used by those who are not sabbatarian. That's what I was taught (I had been a sabbatarian for a time when I first became Christian, and it was pointed out that Matt. 5, if extended to the sabbath would mean every day should be kept "holy" to Him, which means keeping a day holy is not about ceasing from work; hence that part of the Law has been fulfilled and no longer binding in the "letter").

Point is, you're similarly taking "principles" you read about in the OT and trying to extend them to a modern nation, and it doesn't work.

It OBVIOUSLY works as God is doing the EXACT same thing and the United States is responding the EXACT same way as Israel did. Not really sure why y'all have a problem with this. It just is what it is. And what it is is that the US is under judgment just as Israel was.

That you're trying to extend "principles" in place of any clear scriptural implications of America as being under the same covenantal promises as Israel, but when people try to extend many of these "principles" like that, you end up with all sorts of teachings; many outright heretical.

Umm, didn't anyone say we were under the same covenantal promises. The same principles however do apply.

For those promises of prosperity for obedience and punishment for disobedience to apply to America, it would have to be "the chosen" nation, as those promises were apart of the covenant God made with the nation He "chose".

Well either you're wrong or God is playing games because it's playing out exactly the same.

But the people are still different (Ishmael, not Asshur), so you can't call them the Assyrians.

Sure can as the Assyrian empire covered the majority of the area.

If anything, Assyrians were supposed to be "the people of the North", while the Arabs were the people of the South. I've seen other interpretations that claimed the Roman Empire were the Assyrians. Especially the preterist view, which applies all prophecy to 1st century Israel and the Church. You can't just move any other group of people into the slot (just because they seem to fill the role).

The scoffers will believe what they want to believe. But the United States is STILL repeating the same things that Israel did and the result will be the same.
 

InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It OBVIOUSLY works as God is doing the EXACT same thing and the United States is responding the EXACT same way as Israel did. Not really sure why y'all have a problem with this. It just is what it is. And what it is is that the US is under judgment just as Israel was.

I don't have the book so I don't have access to it. Would you please list the things that America is doing EXACTLY the same way that Israel did? Perhaps I can then comment.
 

Eric B

Active Member
Site Supporter
It OBVIOUSLY works as God is doing the EXACT same thing and the United States is responding the EXACT same way as Israel did. Not really sure why y'all have a problem with this. It just is what it is. And what it is is that the US is under judgment just as Israel was.
The US is responding exactly the way PEOPLE do. Which of course is what Israel had done. All it is is common defiance. All of man has this tendency.

Umm, didn't anyone say we were under the same covenantal promises. The same principles however do apply.
In order for these “principles” to carry overEXCLUSIVELY to America like that (apparently the only nation being held to this “obedience=prosperity; disobedience=defeat” promise), it would have to be a special covenant nation. Either God holds the entire world to that principle, or He's still deally specially with nations, or maybe it's simply the age of Grace, and God is focusing more on individuals and not on nations anymore; for nations consist of individuals, and one soul cannot be judged or justified in place of another (which is what happens in corporate judgment).
Well either you're wrong or God is playing games because it's playing out exactly the same.
Because you're scratching up the details that suit this theory, and bending others to fit.

Sure can as the Assyrian empire covered the majority of the area.
Sorry, but you can't just reassign a prophetic identity like that without more of a biblical basis. You could get any symbol to be any nation like that.
For one thing, the nation you claim “Assyria” is punishing now is not even over there in the mideast. The whole point of “Assyria” was that it was a neighboring nation.
 

LadyEagle

<b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
Update: The "Tree of Hope” cedar tree that was planted at Ground Zero to replace the sycamore tree is dying. No one knows why.
 

InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Update: The "Tree of Hope” cedar tree that was planted at Ground Zero to replace the sycamore tree is dying. No one knows why.

People are trying to wrest a scripture written about Israel and applying it to the United States. No one can understand why.
 

plain_n_simple

Active Member
God is not judging America. He said "Peace on earth, goodwill toward men" ushering in a new way that He would deal with men and nations. There will be a day after all thing come to pass.
 

Dennis324

Member
I'm reading the book. I'm maybe halfway through it and find it interesting. I didn't know there was a DVD and would like to get that too!

But honestly I felt that America was at least in danger of falling into Judgment by God long before I even heard of the book. I can see parallels between the US and Rome, or Greece, or Israel, and all fell after a period of decadence.

I find the quotes said by politicians in regard to 911 and rebuilding the towers, and biblical scripture to be fascinating. It seems that without realizing it, these powerful people are quoting scripture. :type:
 

FollowTheWay

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Wow, Eric, all of this rant and conclusion jumping without seeing the DVD? Amazing, it is.

I would suggest watching the DVD in its entirety first and then give a opinion. Political? If anything, it is apolitical - nothing about any certain party or president.

I wouldn't find it necessary to watch this DVD. I've heard it all before. One of the greatest evils that threaten the true Church of Christ is the belief that somehow Christianity and American patriotism go together. There is absolutely no Biblical support for this lie. Many people in the church worship America and especially the Republican party more than they worship God.
 

Roy

<img src=/0710.gif>
Site Supporter
God is not judging America. He said "Peace on earth, goodwill toward men" ushering in a new way that He would deal with men and nations. There will be a day after all thing come to pass.

We may share similar feelings, my friend. I don't believe that we have seen judgment in the U.S.A. so far, but I feel that with "AIDS", natural disasters, economic collapse, and other maladies which are affecting this nation, we are getting a whipping which the Bible calls chastisement. It is what a loving parent administers to his wayward children to get them back in line.

I heard it said by someone else, that when God gave us Obama, he didn't give us what we needed but what we deserve.
 
God is not judging America. He said "Peace on earth, goodwill toward men" ushering in a new way that He would deal with men and nations. There will be a day after all thing come to pass.

We may share similar feelings, my friend. I don't believe that we have seen judgment in the U.S.A. so far, but I feel that with "AIDS", natural disasters, economic collapse, and other maladies which are affecting this nation, we are getting a whipping which the Bible calls chastisement. It is what a loving parent administers to his wayward children to get them back in line.

I heard it said by someone else, that when God gave us Obama, he didn't give us what we needed but what we deserve.
I'm not so sure that the Great Pretender is chastisement, as I don't believe any nation or people group comes under judgment in the church age. I think we've got a Marxist president because that is the direction the country has drifted, and it has been a slow deliberate move in that direction, orchestrated by those who have been trying to take the U.S. in this direction for over a hundred years.

But judgment simply does not come until Jesus' Rapture of the church. In the gospels, He made it clear that in this age, the concern is for the individual soul, not the nation as a whole.
LUke 13, NASB
1 Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4 "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."​
I am convinced He tells us here to take our focus off the nations, and put it squarely on our command to evangelize the world, one person at a time.
 

plain_n_simple

Active Member
Notice the instruction Jesus gave us when we listen to the prophets for direction: "16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

And then on the mountain when Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus. The Father makes it clear to listen to the Son, not the Law and the Prophets.

And yet we have yet to be fulfilled prophecies in Daniel and elsewhere.

And you cannot deny that the Hebrew Holy day of Elul 29 has matched perfectly Sept 17-01, the day the New York Stock Exchange crashed as the first direct hit after the towers.

7 years later to the day it happened again, Sept 29-08 or 29th of Elul, 5768

Sept 13th of 2015 is the next. 29 Elul was the day all debts in Israel were forgiven. It was in the 7th year, year of rest.

It is definitely a supernatural happening whether we think it's God or Satan, but it has to be one or the other.

At the end the Prophet said ALL nations will be against Israel. Either America will be against Israel, or we will no longer exist.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I wouldn't find it necessary to watch this DVD. I've heard it all before. One of the greatest evils that threaten the true Church of Christ is the belief that somehow Christianity and American patriotism go together. There is absolutely no Biblical support for this lie. Many people in the church worship America and especially the Republican party more than they worship God.

I finally got around to reading the book. I had anticipated that I would disagree with the author (based on many comments here), but found the opposite true. I mistakenly began the book thinking that the author would be, in effect, replacing Israel with America and presenting America (as a whole) as God's chosen people....a "Christian nation." The author dismissed the first concern quickly but I believe his dismissal of the latter was more towards the end of the book. Anyway, there are some conclusions that I found less than convincing, but for the most part I enjoyed the book and agree with the author's conclusions (I was surprised that it was in story format...kinda took me off guard at first).

BTW, his argument was not that Israel has been replaced by America or that Isaiah was a prophesy against America (his connection was that Israel was to be an example to the world and that the OT reflected how God deals with nations and people). In other words, the nature of God is revealed through Scripture. I agree with the author here also.

People are trying to wrest a scripture written about Israel and applying it to the United States. No one can understand why.

I may be able to help insofar as the "why." Many believe that God, in Scripture, revealed Himself to man. They believe that while most of this revelation was to and through Israel, Scripture is also applicable to the non-Jew. Some even believe that we are bound by God's moral commandments given to Israel. When they read Scripture they think that they are reading a revelation of God's own nature and of how God deals with people.
 
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