Isaiah 9:10 - The Harbinger - God's Judgment on America?

[Eric B]

I finally got around to reading the book. I had anticipated that I would disagree with the author (based on many comments here), but found the opposite true. I mistakenly began the book thinking that the author would be, in effect, replacing Israel with America and presenting America (as a whole) as God's chosen people....a "Christian nation." The author dismissed the first concern quickly but I believe his dismissal of the latter was more towards the end of the book. Anyway, there are some conclusions that I found less than convincing, but for the most part I enjoyed the book and agree with the author's conclusions (I was surprised that it was in story format...kinda took me off guard at first).

BTW, his argument was not that Israel has been replaced by America or that Isaiah was a prophesy against America (his connection was that Israel was to be an example to the world and that the OT reflected how God deals with nations and people). In other words, the nature of God is revealed through Scripture. I agree with the author here also.


I may be able to help insofar as the "why." Many believe that God, in Scripture, revealed Himself to man. They believe that while most of this revelation was to and through Israel, Scripture is also applicable to the non-Jew. Some even believe that we are bound by God's moral commandments given to Israel. When they read Scripture they think that they are reading a revelation of God's own nature and of how God deals with people.

They still end up making all of scriptural revelation center around America. Every nation goes through cycles where things are better or worse, but with us, it's "we were blessed in the past, [when our values reigned], and now we're cursed, [and it's always because of everyone else's sins, or some leader we don't like]...", and so it ends up that we're the only country so dealt with like that, because there are other countries that are basically "godless", but still prosper. (And then that woula also assume that all countries suffering are being punished for sin).

If God was really still judging all nations by those promises given to Israel, then all would perish; none would pass; not now, not earlier generations or centuries; and that was the point of the Gospel. Extending these divine "laws" to us today, and then splitting off all the "sin" leading to the "curses" to others is just self-righteousness. It's like "I know I've been good, so it's these other people who are ruining it for me/all of us" (And then, they become the "enemies" people want to arm themselves against).

 

[JonC]

They still end up making all of scriptural revelation center around America. Every nation goes through cycles where things are better or worse, but with us, it's "we were blessed in the past, [when our values reigned], and now we're cursed, [and it's always because of everyone else's sins, or some leader we don't like]...", and so it ends up that we're the only country so dealt with like that, because there are other countries that are basically "godless", but still prosper. (And then that woula also assume that all countries suffering are being punished for sin).

If God was really still judging all nations by those promises given to Israel, then all would perish; none would pass; not now, not earlier generations or centuries; and that was the point of the Gospel. Extending these divine "laws" to us today, and then splitting off all the "sin" leading to the "curses" to others is just self-righteousness. It's like "I know I've been good, so it's these other people who are ruining it for me/all of us" (And then, they become the "enemies" people want to arm themselves against).

I think that you are confusing making scriptural revelation applicable to America with making it center around America. This is really the difference in views. I agree with you some go too far as they tend to understand America as God’s chosen nation.

Where you and I disagree is that I do believe God still judges nations. I believe that when the godliness of a people decline, this is reflected in the decline of a nation. I do not, BTW, think that our fate (or the consequences we may face) resulting from an increasing rejection of God is different from the decline of other nations. But I do believe that when God spoke of blessing and cursing nations (which was beyond speaking of Israel) that those words remain relevant today.

 

[Eric B]

OK, what nation is following God, and being blessed for it today? Is every nation that is prospering now because they are following God?

 

[JonC]

OK, what nation is following God, and being blessed for it today? Is every nation that is prospering now because they are following God?

I don't know. What nation was following God during the time of Isaiah 9?

BTW, no one is saying that God judges nations "based on the promises given to Israel." What I am saying is that the OT is not about Israel...it is not about man...it is not about you and me...it is about God and it is about His redemptive plan for man. God is the same in the OT as He is in the new. I have noticed that some seem to present the OT of no importance to us today. Did you ever consider the possibility that the main topic of Scripture may be the same from Genesis to Revelations?

 

[just-want-peace]

I don't know. What nation was following God during the time of Isaiah 9?

BTW, no one is saying that God judges nations "based on the promises given to Israel." What I am saying is that the OT is not about Israel...it is not about man...it is not about you and me...it is about God and it is about His redemptive plan for man. God is the same in the OT as He is in the new. I have noticed that some seem to present the OT of no importance to us today. Did you ever consider the possibility that the main topic of Scripture may be the same from Genesis to Revelations?

A couple of points routinely overlooked by man in his never ending quest of pride.

 

[Eric B]

I don't know. What nation was following God during the time of Isaiah 9?

BTW, no one is saying that God judges nations "based on the promises given to Israel." What I am saying is that the OT is not about Israel...it is not about man...it is not about you and me...it is about God and it is about His redemptive plan for man. God is the same in the OT as He is in the new. I have noticed that some seem to present the OT of no importance to us today. Did you ever consider the possibility that the main topic of Scripture may be the same from Genesis to Revelations?

Yes, it's about God, but people keep applying it to America. I'm not the one making it "about man". (And like then it always becomes God is cursing us because of other people's actions). I mentioned Israel because that is who God was working with in that part of His plan. Everything given to Israel is not for us. Or at least we are not keeping all of it (the sabbaths, rituals, etc.) People cite "God is the same", but not everything is the same between testaments. God not changing means his character never changes, but He does command different things to different people, according to different phases of His plans. The OT and the Law (which the blessings and curses were apart of) were our tutor to bring us to Christ. (Gal.3:24). That is how it is important to us. But it is not for us to pick certain things out (that sound good to us, or sounds like it fits), while we're not keeping the whole thing. (v10).

 

[JonC]

Hey Eric,

I think that you missed some key points in the book (you may want to go back and review what the author states regarding Isaiah 9 and America).
You are, however, doing just what you think the author is doing by applying Torah to America.

The OT and the Law (which the blessings and curses were apart of) were our tutor to bring us to Christ. (Gal.3:24). That is how it is important to us.

Did you notice what you did? You placed “us” under Torah and applied the passage out of context.

If you’ll notice, throughout the book Cahn notes that Isaiah as a prophesy was to Israel and not America. To America (and other nations) it serves as a warning, but not prophesy as it applied to Israel. I think that you are also missing the fact that of all the nations God exercised judgment upon in the OT, only one was under the Law (Israel). When God spoke of nations repenting or facing judgment, only one was under the Law (Israel). How do you reconcile God's judgment in the OT of these nations? Like America, they were not under the Law. Like America they were not Israel. Yet at some point they all faced a judgment that was linked to the character of God as revealed to Israel.

No one is speaking of America observing the Law. It is not that we observe these things, but that God may use these things as a warning. The only person thus far (to include Cahn) who places Americans under Torah has been you with the Galatians 3 comment.

 

[Eric B]

When I said "us", I means man in general, and in a sense, all of men were "under the Law", for all men were condemned for sin, and sin is transgression of the Law. I'm not bringing us under the Law; it's others who keep saying "God has not changed; what He did to them, He will do to us, for our sins".
Even though gentiles were sometimes said to be "without Law", this simply meant the nations did not have the entire covenant and the Mosaic ordinances, but they were judged for sin, and this in scripture always involved Israel, and its covenant and promises. (Either they were fighting Israel, or their paganism threatened the spirituality of Israel).
This was not intended to be extended to America (or any other nation) today.

 

[JonC]

When I said "us", I means man in general, and in a sense, all of men were "under the Law", for all men were condemned for sin, and sin is transgression of the Law. I'm not bringing us under the Law; it's others who keep saying "God has not changed; what He did to them, He will do to us, for our sins".

Even though gentiles were sometimes said to be "without Law", this simply meant the nations did not have the entire covenant and the Mosaic ordinances, but they were judged for sin, and this in scripture always involved Israel, and its covenant and promises. (Either they were fighting Israel, or their paganism threatened the spirituality of Israel).

This was not intended to be extended to America (or any other nation) today.

Please explain. Galatians 3:24 is speaking of the Law as being "added because of trangressions" (Gal 3:19). It is the Law that come to Israel 400 years after Abraham (Gal 3:16). Israel was kept in custody under this law. It had become their paidagôgos. The verse that you quote is specifically about the Law as it related to Israel in the Old Covenant. Somehow you find relevance to this passage in your claim it is extended to man in general. How can it be OK to take this passage and extend it to people who were never under the Law but it is objectionable to believe that God still exercises judgment (God is still active in the happenings of the world) beyond ancient Israel?

 

[Eric B]

"The Law" was something progressively built up, starting withthe "universal" commands given to Noah (which are roughly reiterated in Acts 15) until finally, completely encoded in the Torah of Moses, which was what Paul was referring to as coming 430 years later.

In Acts 15:5 and especially Gal. 5, circumcision, which began with Abraham, was associated with "the Law". In John 7:22, Jesus even so associates it, though acknowledging it really came from "the patriarchs".

So judgments give to Israel, for national prosperity or punishment, are apart of that (and again, were only extended to other nations as they involved Israel). You're the one saying all of man has been brought under somethng promised to Israel. What God has extended to the world today is grace, and on a more individual level than national. You cannot be held responsible for what millions of other people in the nation do, so God is not going to judge you for that. (Unless you belivee God is holding you personally responsible to convert all of them, and then what usually happens, the person believing something like this presumes he is already doing his job, and then goes on to blame "compromising Christians", adding them to all the sinning nonChristians, as being at fault).

 

[JonC]

"The Law" was something progressively built up, starting withthe "universal" commands given to Noah (which are roughly reiterated in Acts 15) until finally, completely encoded in the Torah of Moses, which was what Paul was referring to as coming 430 years later.

In Acts 15:5 and especially Gal. 5, circumcision, which began with Abraham, was associated with "the Law". In John 7:22, Jesus even so associates it, though acknowledging it really came from "the patriarchs".

So judgments give to Israel, for national prosperity or punishment, are apart of that (and again, were only extended to other nations as they involved Israel). You're the one saying all of man has been brought under somethng promised to Israel. What God has extended to the world today is grace, and on a more individual level than national. You cannot be held responsible for what millions of other people in the nation do, so God is not going to judge you for that. (Unless you belivee God is holding you personally responsible to convert all of them, and then what usually happens, the person believing something like this presumes he is already doing his job, and then goes on to blame "compromising Christians", adding them to all the sinning nonChristians, as being at fault).

How do you explain God’s covenant with Abraham in your progressive Law theory?

 

[Eric B]

The promise given to Abraham (which was to become "the father of many nations") were spiritualized, being extended to the Gentiles "through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit" (Gal.3:14). The physical applications of it (circumcision, etc.) was apart of what was encoded into the Law of Moses, and ended with it.

 

[JonC]

The promise given to Abraham (which was to become "the father of many nations") were spiritualized, being extended to the Gentiles "through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit" (Gal.3:14). The physical applications of it (circumcision, etc.) was apart of what was encoded into the Law of Moses, and ended with it.

When was the Abrahamic covenant "spiritualized"?

 

[CatMommy]

Wow, Eric, all of this rant and conclusion jumping without seeing the DVD? Amazing, it is.

I would suggest watching the DVD in its entirety first and then give a opinion. Political? If anything, it is apolitical - nothing about any certain party or president.

At least I know it isn't just my posts that contain videos people refuse to watch but don't abstain from condemning in ignorance. Much like what you see that garner that same style of remark in your own.

God willing maybe the video itself, that DVD, that someone shared on YT will help.

The Isaiah 9:10 Judgment Full video


I think it is the height of arrogance to ignore the fact that America has fallen away from God and our moral foundation that was stricken in scriptures and religious groundwork.

And we're turning more toward Satan than God through the imposition of laws of evil men more and more.
Islam is being taught in schools! While Christianity is forbidden and threatened with prosecution if a Christian dare. Children are punished for reading their Bibles at recess. Graduates are commanded to present their graduation speech when they're to graduate with high honors. This so that the authorities of the school can review the content to make sure there are no God references, Christian God references, before the speech is made public at the ceremony.

While a graduate during a graduation ceremony at a high school, which took place on the schools football field, here in America was filmed from the stands as he made his way to the open area and bowed toward Mecca during the ceremony. And no one said a word to stop him.

This was captured on video and published to YouTube.
While a student who took a knee to thank God after a field goal in football was penalized 15 yards. That was too.

What is interesting is that the "Tree of Hope" that was planted at Ground Zero in NYC, that replaced the Sycamore that was destroyed by a falling beam when the towers fell during the terrorist attack on 9-11 (national emergency number in America btw), died in August.

When it isn't so late and I have more time I'll watch that video I linked here. I'd hope anyone who thought to comment on it would show respect for the author of this thread and do the same before they think to condemn what they don't know about it.

 

[just-want-peace]

-----before they think to condemn what they don't know about it.

AMEN!!! Awful lot of this does go on, unfortunately!

 

[CatMommy]

AMEN!!! Awful lot of this does go on, unfortunately!

I'm new so I thought it was something unique to my posts. That's very sad. We should hold up in prayer those who tend to do that as a habit. And pray overall that patience and respect take root in this forum.

This isn't a church it is a online discussion forum. However, Jesus said where two or three are gathered in his name there he is also.

How we treat one another here before Christ who attends due to those numbers should make us more conscious when we post to one another.

:1_grouphug:raying:God have mercy.

 

[InTheLight]

I'd hope anyone who thought to comment on it would show respect for the author of this thread and do the same before they think to condemn what they don't know about it.

I don't need to see the video I've read excerpts from the book. I know that when the Founding Fathers started America they did not view it as a "new Israel" or "the Israel of the New World". America is not the new chosen people of God. We cannot expect the same blessings that God promised to Israel to bless America. God blesses people, not nations.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I am troubled by this "watch my video or shut up" mentality.

 

[CatMommy]

So you've not read the book nor will you watch the video.

People populate nations.

Psalm 33:12 CJB Complete Jewish Bible
How blessed is the nation whose God is ADONAI, the people he chose as his heritage!


King James Version
Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

 

[InTheLight]

So you've not read the book nor will you watch the video.

People populate nations.

True or False?

"The founding fathers believed they were planting a new Israel in the New World when they founded America."