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Featured praying = speaking to God

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by awaken, Nov 26, 2012.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
    6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
    7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
    8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
    9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
    10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
    11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


    Paul is not referring to spiritual gifts as used exclusively in the congregation in the above text but is referring to the DISTRIBUTION OF GIFTS IN GENERAL without any regard to LOCATION.

    The words "to another.....to another.....to another" are vain repetition according to your claims that God gives tongues to all Christians.

    The words "dividing to every man SEVERALLY AS HE WILL." is nonsense according to your claim that God gives tongues to all Christians.


    29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
    30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?


    The Greek text actually contains the Greek word for "no" in every phrase and would read this way:

    "not all are apostles; not all are prophets..not all...not all....not all....not all....not all....."

    However your claims directly contradict this emphatic denial by Paul that tongues are not given to all Christians.

    Paul is talking about the POSSESSION of such gifts not the LOCATION where such gifts are exercised.

    Your theories and interpetations are repudiated by Paul in clear and explicit language and in a context of GENERAL distribution and GENERAL possession without any reference to LOCATION.
     
    #41 The Biblicist, Nov 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2012
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Paul directly quotes Isaiah 28:11-15 as the MATURE understanding for God's purpose of Tongues.

    11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
    12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
    13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
    14 ¶ Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
    15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
    16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


    It does not take a linguistic genius to see that this is directed toward the jews about the promised rest (v. 12) which is Jesus Christ (v. 16).

    It does not take a theologion to see tongues are known languages foreign to the Jews (v. 11)

    It does not take brilliance to see these tongues are not directed "to God" but "TO THIS PEOPLE" (v. 11) who are unbelieving Israel/Jews and their leadership who live "in Jerusalem" (v. 14).

    It does not take anything other than common sense to see this Biblical design for tongues is OUTSIDE the assembly and thus this explicit Biblical design for tongues has nothing to do with tongues in the sanctuary!

    This is the MATURE understanding (1 Cor. 14:20) that Paul provides for the Biblical design and thus proper goal for the use of tongues (1 Cor. 14:21-22).

    20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
    21 ¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
    22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe
    .

    Note the words "yet for all that will THEY NOT HEAR ME" and so tongues are not directed to God but to this people from God and their response is that will not believe.

    Note the words "wherefore tongues are for a sign" that is their Biblical purpose whether you accept it or not. They are not given for prayer, praise, or for spirituality but they are given to believers "for a sign" and therefore they are not given to them that "believe" as your view demands. They are given as a sign to the UNBELIEVING JEWISH PEOPLE who are very LEARNED in the Scriptures but very lost.

    This design is EXTERNAL TO THE CONGREGATION! Hence, the Biblical purpose of tongues is EXTERNAL to the congregation. This design is not "for believers" their prayer life, their spiritual growth but "TO THEM THAT BELIEVE NOT"!

    Your whole position is in direct contradiction to the explicit and ONLY BIBLICAL basis given by Paul for the gift of tongues.
     
  3. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    But if it's "private" it is not for others. So you contradict.
     
  4. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Show me the verse that says that tongues is for every believer.
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Isa. 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

    1 Cor. 14:21 ¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

    Note that these are human languagues that God will use to speak to "this people." Hence, tongues are designed by God to speak to people and it is God speaking to them through the gift of tongues instead of Christians speaking to God.

    However, current tongue speakers completely REVERSE the word of God on this point and claim that tongues are given to all Christians to speak to God. When 1 Cor. 14:2 is interpreted by its context it is only when believers use tongues inappropriately is God the sole audiance as no one else hearing them can understand the languages.
     
    #45 The Biblicist, Nov 27, 2012
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  6. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    In all the threads on this forum...I have always said speaking in tongues has nothing to do with ones salvation.
    Consider this...
    The three examples of speaking in tongues which are in Acts (day of Pentecost, the household of Cornelius, and the new converts in Ephesus) are the only examples of people speaking in tongues in the entire New Testament. There are a number of other passages in the New Testament which talk about speaking in tongues, but no other passages describe people doing it.


    1. In every passage where people spoke in tongues in the book of Acts, notice that every new believer spoke in tongues.

    2. In the first two examples of tongues, the purpose was to praise God in the Holy Spirit. In the third example, the new believers "spoke in tongues and prophesied." Those believers might have praised God in tongues based on the other two examples of people praising God in tongues.

    Notice that there was not a single example of anyone speaking in tongues for the purpose of sharing the Gospel with foreigners.

    3. In the passages in Acts (especially the account of Pentecost and the story of Cornelius), people were speaking to God in tongues. This is what the apostle Paul meant when he said:
    "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God." (1 Corinthians 14:2)

    So when people spoke in tongues in the above passages, they were praying directly to God in the Holy Spirit. In other words, the communication was going from earth up to heaven.

    Now take a look at another statement that the apostle Paul made:
    "He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified." (1 Corinthians 14:5)
    Here Paul said that when a person speaks a message in tongues to a church congregation, the message must be interpreted so that the congregation can be edified (i.e. so that the message will benefit them, instruct them, build them up in their faith, etc.). This describes another form of tongues in which a message is delivered from heaven down to earth, which must be interpreted into the local language.

    So there are actually two purposes for tongues in the New Testament, which is something that many Christians don't realize. There's a "public" form of tongues for delivering a message from God to a group of people (which must be interpreted into the local language), and there's a "private" form of tongues for speaking to God (praying to Him in the Spirit). Each form of tongues has a different purpose.
     
  7. Melanie

    Melanie Active Member
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    All this debate.......it is well known as in so far as I know....God speaks English with a distinct Australian lilt....I told that to a French retreat master and he was so NOT pleased!!!!:tongue3:
     
  8. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Speaking in tongues is speaking to God..yes or no? 1 Cor. 14:2
     
  9. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    I can show you every instance in Acts where speaking in tongues is demonstrated...everyone spoke in tongues. Not just a few! Acts 2, 10, 19.
     
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    If I speak English in the middle of a Russian town where no one understands me, I'm speaking to no one but God and myself - even when I'm not even addressing God. It doesn't mean that when I speak I am just speaking to God and whenever I speak in this tongue that I am only speaking to God. I do not see supported in this passage (must read the whole passage and not rip one verse out of context) that speaking in tongues only speaking to God. We can see that clearly in the text and in the other areas of Scripture that is speaking of tongues.

    So no, I do not agree that speaking in tongues is speaking to God by definition.
     
  11. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Is speaking to God prayer or not?
     
  12. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    That every believer is to speak in tongues? What verses. Please show me.
     
  13. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    THis section of scriptures blends the manifestations and the ministries, and points out that not everyone will be energized in the same way at the same time.
    Pay close attention to the list...apostles, prophets, teachers etc. are ministries. Tongues, interpretation, miracles etc. are manifestations. This scripture is a summary statement. The Lord distributes to every person, and at any given time he will energize the spiritual gifts and manifestations differently in different people.

    Notice in 1 Cor. 12: 7-10 there are two different Greek words, allos and heteros, translated "to another" and " to a different one." They have different meanings, which despite a tendecy to get lost, is to be observed in numerous passages. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes "another of the same sort", heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes "another of a different kind". (Vines Lexicon)
     
  14. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    I showed this in a previous post to someone else, again...

    I will start in Acts 1:4-8 where Jesus promises to send the Holy Spirit. He calls it Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Where power would be received.

    In Acts 2:1-4 Shows when this happen and what happened. They spoke with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    Acts 2:33 It tells that Jesus received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. (tongues)

    Acts 2:38-39 Tells who can receive this promise..even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    In Acts 2 they all spoke in tongues!
    In Acts 8 even though it does not say tongues. Simeon saw something manifest in those that received the Holy Spirit (same thing that was promised in Acts 1).
    In Acts 10 when they received the Holy Spirit JUST LIKE IN ACTS. It does not say some of them spoke in tongue. The received the same way and manifested the same way as Acts 2. (10:45-47)
    In Acts 19:6 "...the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

    This is the only example of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit in Acts. Except Paul said he spoke in tongues more than any.
    Not to mention Mark 16 ..."those that believe shall speak in new tongues"
     
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    First, this question ignores that tongues are described as far as usage in a variety of ways such as "speaketh" "pray" and "singing" and the list could have extended to any other manner of verbalization.

    Second, 1 Cor. 14:2 does not mention "pray" or "prayer" but "speaketh" in general regardless of mode.

    Third, in the context of "praying" (1 Cor. 14:16-17) it is being condemned by Paul without understanding by both speaker and hearers. Hence, Paul does not commend the use of tongues as a prayer tongue unto God unless comprehension for both speaker and hearer is provided.
     
  16. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Yes, in Acts, many new believers spoke in tongues. However, we see later on as the church grew, that didn't continue to happen. No where are we told that every believer will speak in tongues and as a matter of fact, we see just the opposite - that God will give the gift to some and not to all. Paul actually tells people to not seek tongues but instead to seek the greater gifts! If every believer was supposed to speak in tongues, they would and Paul would not have said otherwise - and we would have seen that even Paul spoke in tongues when he was saved - but we read nothing of the sort. So no, tongues is not for every believer and I highly doubt that 99% of the tongues practiced today are even real. I think I'll listen to God's Word about the matter.
     
  17. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    THe rest is speaking to them in stammering lips. THis is the rest refers back to what he said in vs.11.

    Didn't the Jews understand the tongues in Acts 2?

    the only sign to the unbelieving Jews was the uninterpreted tongues. That is why Paul said tongues in church must be interpreted so the unbelievers would not think it was a sign of judgement.

    Tongues is speaking to God...no way around it according to 1 Cor. 14!

    Again... "uninterpreted tongues" have been used in Israel's history as a sign to the unbelieving Israelites that God's judgment had come upon them. Paul was quoting a prophecy from Isaiah 28:11-12:
    "Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest"; and, "This is the place of repose"-- but they would not listen." (Isaiah 28:11-12)
    This prophecy was fulfilled when the Assyrian army swooped down upon Israel speaking a foreign language (an uninterpreted tongue), carrying Israel off into captivity. Paul used an example from Israel's history to show that uninterpreted tongues are sometimes used as a "sign" for unbelievers that judgment has come upon them.

    Then Paul pointed out that if an unbeliever enters a church where Christians seem to have lost their minds, the unbeliever wouldn't see this as a sign of impending judgment. This is why Paul said that prophecy is much more beneficial during a church service.


    I explained my view above..
     
  18. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    When we speak to God is it considered prayer? Yes or No?
     
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    That is not true and it is rediculous! It does not "blend" them at all but DISTINGUISHES and DIFFERIANIATES between them. He just got through talking about their distribution (vv. 7-11) and he said "to ANOTHER" distinguishing between people (allos versus heteros) not between manifestations to the same (allos) persons! That is your PURE IMAGINATION in direct contradiction the Spirit inspired Word of God.



    It says no such thing but says the very opposite. He does not distribute the same manifestation TO EVERY PERSON at various times but he distributes some things to one that he does not another BECAUSE God has equipped each member for their particular task in the body (vv. 11-27). You don't have any idea what you are talking about.


    You are the one who needs to pay closer attention to the context. That is my point exactly!!! He is not talking about the SAME PERSON obtaining different manifestations at different times but that these gifts are not distributed to the SAME PERSON but to DIFFERENT Person than the previous one mentioned for different reasons due to their different calling in the body (vv. 11-27).
     
  20. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Paul said he spoke in tongues more than all. He fully endorsed the public use of tongues as long as it's done one at a time, and as long as someone receives the interpretation.
    He fully endorsed the private use of tongues by saying that if someone speaks publicly in tongues but the interpretation is not given to anyone, then the speaker should sit down and continue to speak quietly to God in tongues.

    Not all are called to speak in tongues in the assembly. In Cor. this is what they were trying to do. Paul was trying to correct them!

    Not to mention He said "forbid not to speak in tongue"...to believe as most do here..you have to ignore these scriptures.
     
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