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This thread is a paradox to me. Here is exactly how I feel about it. My testimony is very similar to EWR and OR. I have never had a cross word with OR or EWF. Both believe in Docrtines of Grace as I do. Their posts are encouraging, edifying, and truthful. It is not my habit to agree with the free will side, but neither do I bash them into eternity.

The focus of the problem in this whole debate is one poster, Icon. He claims to be on the same side as the ones mentioned above and HoS, and, others to a degree. Yet, he never has one positive thing to say in any of his posts. Between the name calling, the arrogance, and the obnoxious words, there is no evidence to support his claim of a lock of the truth of the Lord. His posts are demeaning, not edifying, and never say an encouraging word. The fruits of the Holy Spirit appear to be as distant as the edge of the universe. There has been more damage done by this one individual on this subject than the collective posts of anyone else who ever posted.

The presents a dilemma. It hurts the cause of those of us who do believe in predestination, as in Romans 8:28-30. Arminians owe him a debt of gratitude. While I have never been to seminary, lots of those I am friends with have, and I will take their collective knowledge and wisdom, my own studies, and learning from many pastors over a mail order Bible course worked at truck stops.

 

SN,

I have learned that formal theological education is a valuable asset, but it does nothing to develop Christian character. I know individuals whose eyes would glaze over if you asked them their opinion on the perspicuity of scripture. On the other hand these individuals exemplify Christ by word and deed. It is the latter who are Christ-like. The former are only Christ-like if their knowledge is accompanied by good Christian character.

As far as your opinion on Icon, it is unfortunate that you two do not see eye to eye. I have spoken with Icon, and I am convinced that he has a genuine love for God and of God's truth and glory. Perhaps it is his zeal for God's truth, and glory, that comes off poorly to you in this venue? If you recall, you and I got off to a rather shaky start at first, but over came that (Praise God!). I pray God grants the same outcome to Icon and you. In the meantime the only remedy I can think of is not to interact with each other for the time being.

 

Many Reformed confessions say this, I will quote the Westminster Confession of Faith;

Has it come to pass that you believe in Reformed theology?

Has it come to pass that I believe in non-Cal/Arminian theology?

Then according to this confession, it was unchangeably ordained by God. Now, that doesn't mean that God necessarily forced you to believe in the DoGs, or me to believe in Arminian theology, but it means that it was God's will that you be DoG, and I Arminian or non-Cal. Whatever God allows he must will, no?? That is YOUR VIEW.

So, when you try to convert me, you are fighting against God's will.

Even if you argue that God ordained you try to convert me, then God has ordained against himself, because he ordained that I should be an Arminian or non-Cal.

This is not complicated or difficult to understand at all. I think you clearly understand.

You see, your doctrine makeS God seem almost insane, he is fighting himself.

When Jesus cast out devils, the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting them out by Beelzebub.

Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Jesus told the Pharisees that if he cast out devils by the power of Beelzebub, that would be the devil divided against himself. Even the old devil is smarter than that, and certainly God is much wiser than Satan.

So, God does not fight against himself. He would not ordain that Christians have opposing views.

So, it is illogical if God ordains all things for Christians to have opposing views.

 

You could not be more wrong here.

First of all, the LAST thing on earth, in my opinion, that has any hold whatsoever on Winman is logic.

Secondly, logic comes FROM God. It is truth. The law of noncontradiction for example states that something cannot BE something and NOT BE that something at the same time.

That is the ESSENCE of truth. If something can be something and at the same time, in the same sense NOT be that something then NOTHING can be judged to be true.

If I can be here and NOT be here at the same time and in the same sense then there is absolutely no statement that you can make about my present location that is really true.

You may say, "You are there." But if the law of noncontradiction does not apply then that can be as much an absolute lie as it is perfectly true.

So NOTHING is ACTUALLY true if logic does not reign.

If the law of noncontradiction does not apply to God then nothing he ever says can be really true. It could be an absolute lie while being true.

There would be NO TRUTH if the law of noncontradiction does not reign.

But it does reign because it emanates from God just like LOVE emanates from God.

When Jesus said, "I am... the truth..." he was saying I do not ever contradict myself. What I say is true and in no sense false. Not only is what he SAYS true but his very ESSENCE is truth. He is just as much truth (noncontradiction) as he is LOVE.

That is the law of noncontradiction. It is logic. It is of God. It is eternal.

And your theology MUST... I repeat.... MUST be bound by it or your theology is absolute BUNK.

 

I agree 100% that God is not the God of confusion, that is why your doctrine MUST be error, because if it were true, God would be the author of confusion. He would have Christians holding opposing views, and his kingdom would be divided against itself.

You see, non-Cals do not believe God ordains all things that come to pass, we believe men have free will and therefore can hold opposing opinions and beliefs.

You on the other hand believe men can only hold those beliefs and opinions that God allows, and whatever particular belief a man holds is God's will for that man. But it is obvious there are many different and even opposing beliefs among Christians, so God must will that Christians oppose each other. His kingdom is divided against itself, which contradicts what Jesus taught.

 

Well, there must be something to my arguments, because just about every Calvinist here feels the need to write about me often.

You WISH your posts would get that kind of attention. :thumbsup:

 

One of the best post I have ever read and here is why.

Saved????

Eph. 2:8 must have the absolute same meaning as Titus 3:5 just as if we are saved by baptism and I believe we are then baptism must have the same absolute meaning as the previous, and this would go along with anything concerning saved. Thy word is truth. And also logical. Our theology must always be logical and true.

BTW I believe the water baptism of Jesus to be prophesy, washing of water, by the word (of God) with that prophesy bearing the same result as Eph. 2:8 and Titus 3:5.

 

It is the most ridiculous looking animal at the zoo which draws the most attention.

 

You can't constrain God by logic any more or less than you can constrain God by his holiness.

Is God constrained by holiness?

No- he just IS holy. Holiness is his essence, just like truth is. Therefore LOGIC is his essence. It is not about constraining him- it is about WHAT HE IS.

He IS logical.

He does not contradict himself.

So you CANNOT constrain him by what he is. That is silly. I am not constraining him by logic. I am saying that he IS logical.

Your disdain for logic makes you a madman. Any one deprived of logic is insane- plain and simple.

Spit on logic if you will but in so doing you spit on an attribute of God himself. And that truly is insane.

 

If you don't beleive that God is logical then you don't truly BELIEVE ANYTHING.

If the creator of the universe can be something and not be that something at the same time and in the same sense then nothing in the universe he created is truly believable.

Without logic you do not believe in ANYTHING.

You can SAY you believe stuff, but that's just words. If at your core you do not ACTUALLY believe in the invincibility of logic, that for something to be true it must be logical, then you don't beleive in anything.

Why? Because in a world without logic anything can be anything and everything can be nothing and still be everything at the same time.

It is absolute madness.

 

You don't get it.

Logic is not mine or yours or ANYBODY'S. It is of God. It is truth.

Who has tried to constrain God???

Saying he will or will not or even that he can or can NOt do something is not constraining him- it is IDENTIFYING him.

Are you constraining God when you say, "God cannot lie"?

No.

Neither are you constraining God when you say, "God is logical."

and that he is logical?

I just shared it with you!!

Pay attention PLEASE!

Did you not read a post or two ago where I said that Jesus said "I am the ... Truth..."

Did you not read where I reasoned that truth is something that does not contradict itself and is the ESSENCE of the law of logic known as THE LAW OF NONCONTRADICTION???

NNE IS TRYING TO PUT GOD IN A BOX.

You are NO MORE putting God in a box by saying that he is LOGICAL than you are putting God in a box by saying he is LOVE.

The law of noncontradiction is not THEIR LOGIC!!!!!


It IS logic!!! It doesn't belong to ANYONE!!

God does not contradict himself- do you agree? You say "yes"- fine. Great.

THAT is logic.

So stop acting like somebody is trying make God fit into a box when YOU ALREADY AGREE THAT HE IS LOGICAL.

 

I could but you wouldn't get it.

I'll try anyway. When you say that God is not "bound by logic" you are saying that logic does not apply to God.

You are saying that God does not HAVE to be logical.

If that is the case nothing he says can be trusted because, if he is not logical, he can mean it and not mean it AT THE SAME TIME. He can intend to do it and have NO intention to do it AT THE SAME TIME.

So nothing he says is trustworthy if he is not LOGICAL.

The REASON you trust him is because you believe he IS LOGICAL- that he DOES NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF.

That is the LAW OF NON-CONTRADICTION.

Those are just words. They don't mean anything if you believe God is not logical.

In your mind God, since he is not logical, an be holy and not holy at the same time.

You are angry man aren't you. I love how you get up on your snotty little self-righteous pedestal and lecture us all about being more loving and then you act like this.

God's logic is AS invincible as God's LOVE.

 

Look who is calling another pejoratives! Now I've seeneverything:laugh:

 

Ahhhh Scripture!!!:love2:

Romans 9:14-22

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[a]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[c] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?