Featured Have Any Spiritual Gifts Ever "Died Out"?

Although "complete" is a valid translation of the basic Greek word teleios, Paul actually used a specific form of this Greek word in 1 Corinthians 13:10 which has a very definite meaning. Paul used the Greek expression "to teleion," which specifically refers to our ultimate perfection in heaven (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.1372). You can easily verify the expression that Paul used by going to any library or Christian bookstore and looking up 1 Corinthians 13:10 in any Greek version of the New Testament. If you then look up teleios in the Greek dictionary mentioned above, you can verify that when it is used in the form of "to teleion" it refers to the heavenly perfection of our bodies, which we will not experience until our bodies are transformed and perfected at the Rapture. (THat was for you, DHK! you seem to like references other than just the scriptures)

Again, there is no evidence to suggest that Paul had the completed New Testament in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Instead, the evidence indicates that "perfection" refers to our ultimate maturity as believers.

 

Again..you are so bent on proving my every word wrong...you missed the part where I said how he (Paul) normally used this word! I did not quote every verse in the Bible!

 

Paul said that when "perfection" comes, then the "imperfect" will disappear:

"But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears." (1 Corinthians 13:8-10)

It is clear from the context that the word "imperfect" refers to the spiritual gifts that are mentioned here, although this obviously does not mean that the Holy Spirit is imperfect or that His gifts are imperfect! The gifts of the Spirit are for our use while we are in these fallen, physical bodies on earth, and it is our use of the spiritual gifts which is imperfect, because Paul said that "we know in part and we prophesy in part." However, when "perfection" comes, meaning the perfection or completion of our salvation at the Rapture (or when we get to heaven, whichever comes first), then we will no longer need these gifts of the Spirit.

Notice what Paul said will happen when we receive the completion or perfection of our salvation:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed --in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." (1 Corinthians 15:51-53)

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." (Philippians 3:20-21)

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

When Jesus returns for us at the Rapture then we will instantly be changed from mortality to immortality. Our previous, mortal, fallen state of existence will be completely done away with when "perfection" comes. It is this completion and perfection of our salvation which Paul was referring to in 1 Corinthians 13:10, not the completion of the New Testament

 

More to consider....

If Paul had mentioned the completed New Testament somewhere in the same context as the word "perfection," then this would strengthen the argument that the word "perfection" refers to the completed New Testament.

However, Paul did not mention the New Testament at all in the context of 1 Corinthians 13:10. Paul never said anything about the completed New Testament in the entire book of 1 Corinthians. In fact, Paul never mentioned a "New Testament" or a new set of Scriptures in any of his letters!

Every book of the New Testament written by Paul was a letter to a particular church, or to believers in a particular city, or to specific individuals. Notice in the following passages that Paul always referred to his letters as "letters," not as new books of Scripture. Here are all of the places in the New Testament where Paul made a reference to his own writings:

"I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people" (1 Corinthians 5:9)

"Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it--I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while" (2 Corinthians 7:8)

"I do not want to seem to be trying to frighten you with my letters. For some say, "His letters are weighty and forceful, but in person he is unimpressive and his speaking amounts to nothing." Such people should realize that what we are in our letters when we are absent, we will be in our actions when we are present." (2 Corinthians 10:9-11)

"After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea." (Colossians 4:16)

"I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers." (1 Thessalonians 5:27)

"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

"If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed." (2 Thessalonians 3:14)

"I, Paul, write this greeting in my own hand, which is the distinguishing mark in all my letters. This is how I write." (2 Thessalonians 3:17)

Paul never referred to his letters as new books of Scripture, nor did he ever describe anyone else's writings as being new books of Scripture. Certainly Paul's letters are inspired Scripture, but the point is that Paul never made any kind of reference to a "New Testament" or a new set of Scriptures. We have no Scriptural evidence for taking Paul's vague statement, "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," as being a reference to the completed New Testament because Paul never mentioned such a thing as a "New Testament." In fact, after Paul died, roughly 75 years went by before anyone even tried to formally put together a new set of Scriptures, which we now call "the New Testament" (The History of Christianity, Dr. Tim Dowley, p.106)(There is another reference for you DHK!). This makes it even less likely that Paul had such a thing in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10.

 

Again, you missed the point of the post if that is all you got out of it!

 

Only because it does not fit your interpretation...really!

 

Paul's use of the word "perfection" is rather vague, but he elaborated on this statement with three illustrations, all of which deal with our maturity as believers. Not one of these illustrations has any bearing on the completed New Testament.

Paul's first illustration is in 1 Corinthians 13:11, which immediately follows his use of the word "perfection":

"but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me." (1 Corinthians 13:10-11)

Paul's illustration speaks of maturity, but notice that he was not talking about the maturity of the New Testament. He was talking about our maturity as believers, which will finally be "perfected" or "completed" when we are transformed at the return of Christ (see 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, Philippians 3:20-21, and 1 John 3:2 ).

Since Paul used a description of spiritual maturity to elaborate on his statement that "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," it provides further confirmation that this "perfection" does not refer to the completion of the New Testament.

 

NO, this has nothing to do with the apostles! Gifts? Yes! So if you can prove with scriptures that they have not ceased or can add to the debate...it is welcome! But we will just have to disagree on the apostles and move on. I stated my case in that thread....this one is about "Have the gifts ever 'died out'."

 

Here is the next illustration that Paul used to describe "perfection" (which immediately follows the previous illustration):

"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face." (1 Corinthians 13:12)

The exact same Greek phrase ("see face to face") is used in the Greek version of the Old Testament for seeing God face to face:

"So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."" (Genesis 32:30)

The apostle John confirms for us that we will see God as He is (face to face) after Jesus returns for us and "perfects" our bodies at the Rapture:

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

Paul explained his statement about "perfection" by saying that "we shall see face to face," and we can see that it has nothing to do with the completion of the New Testament. Instead, it refers to our being transformed and taken into heaven when Jesus comes for us at the Rapture. Since Paul used this illustration to elaborate on his statement that "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," it provides further confirmation that this "perfection" does not refer to the completion of the New Testament.

 

Well, if the snide remarks are all you have...then I guess you can not add anything to the debate! Those kind of post only take away from the discussions of God's Word!

If you believe the gifts are still here...how do you defend it...by scriptures! I would like to know...since I have not heard your take on this!

 

Very well put!!:applause::applause: