Have Any Spiritual Gifts Ever "Died Out"?

[awaken]

Although "complete" is a valid translation of the basic Greek word teleios, Paul actually used a specific form of this Greek word in 1 Corinthians 13:10 which has a very definite meaning. Paul used the Greek expression "to teleion," which specifically refers to our ultimate perfection in heaven (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.1372). You can easily verify the expression that Paul used by going to any library or Christian bookstore and looking up 1 Corinthians 13:10 in any Greek version of the New Testament. If you then look up teleios in the Greek dictionary mentioned above, you can verify that when it is used in the form of "to teleion" it refers to the heavenly perfection of our bodies, which we will not experience until our bodies are transformed and perfected at the Rapture. (THat was for you, DHK! you seem to like references other than just the scriptures)

Again, there is no evidence to suggest that Paul had the completed New Testament in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Instead, the evidence indicates that "perfection" refers to our ultimate maturity as believers.

 

[DHK]

What did Paul mean by the Greek word teleios? Maybe to examine every place he used it in Scripture and then to determine how he normally used this word. Apart from the verse we are studying (1 Corinthians 13:10), Paul used teleios seven other times in the New Testament:

You are totally wrong. Care to tell where you got your (mis)information from?

First of all let me point out your deceitfulness.
It is translated "perfect" in the KJV, and most reference books use that as their standard. What version did you use? It wasn't the KJV. In virtually all the verses you quoted from the word teleios is translated "perfect" in the KJV. Or did you simply change the word yourself? That is not being honest with the reader/board.

Secondly, your facts aren't even straight.
teleios is used a total of 19 times in the NT.
Of those 19, 17 times it is translated "perfect."
Once it is translated as "man."
Once it is translated as "of full age."

This information comes from Smith's Greek-English Concordance, which is a very reliable book.

 

[awaken]

You are totally wrong. Care to tell where you got your (mis)information from?

First of all let me point out your deceitfulness.
It is translated "perfect" in the KJV, and most reference books use that as their standard. What version did you use? It wasn't the KJV. In virtually all the verses you quoted from the word teleios is translated "perfect" in the KJV. Or did you simply change the word yourself? That is not being honest with the reader/board.

Secondly, your facts aren't even straight.
teleios is used a total of 19 times in the NT.
Of those 19, 17 times it is translated "perfect."
Once it is translated as "man."
Once it is translated as "of full age."

This information comes from Smith's Greek-English Concordance, which is a very reliable book.

Again..you are so bent on proving my every word wrong...you missed the part where I said how he (Paul) normally used this word! I did not quote every verse in the Bible!

 

[awaken]

Paul said that when "perfection" comes, then the "imperfect" will disappear:

"But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears." (1 Corinthians 13:8-10)

It is clear from the context that the word "imperfect" refers to the spiritual gifts that are mentioned here, although this obviously does not mean that the Holy Spirit is imperfect or that His gifts are imperfect! The gifts of the Spirit are for our use while we are in these fallen, physical bodies on earth, and it is our use of the spiritual gifts which is imperfect, because Paul said that "we know in part and we prophesy in part." However, when "perfection" comes, meaning the perfection or completion of our salvation at the Rapture (or when we get to heaven, whichever comes first), then we will no longer need these gifts of the Spirit.

Notice what Paul said will happen when we receive the completion or perfection of our salvation:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed --in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." (1 Corinthians 15:51-53)

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." (Philippians 3:20-21)

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

When Jesus returns for us at the Rapture then we will instantly be changed from mortality to immortality. Our previous, mortal, fallen state of existence will be completely done away with when "perfection" comes. It is this completion and perfection of our salvation which Paul was referring to in 1 Corinthians 13:10, not the completion of the New Testament

 

[awaken]

More to consider....

If Paul had mentioned the completed New Testament somewhere in the same context as the word "perfection," then this would strengthen the argument that the word "perfection" refers to the completed New Testament.

However, Paul did not mention the New Testament at all in the context of 1 Corinthians 13:10. Paul never said anything about the completed New Testament in the entire book of 1 Corinthians. In fact, Paul never mentioned a "New Testament" or a new set of Scriptures in any of his letters!

Every book of the New Testament written by Paul was a letter to a particular church, or to believers in a particular city, or to specific individuals. Notice in the following passages that Paul always referred to his letters as "letters," not as new books of Scripture. Here are all of the places in the New Testament where Paul made a reference to his own writings:

"I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people" (1 Corinthians 5:9)

"Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it--I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while" (2 Corinthians 7:8)

"I do not want to seem to be trying to frighten you with my letters. For some say, "His letters are weighty and forceful, but in person he is unimpressive and his speaking amounts to nothing." Such people should realize that what we are in our letters when we are absent, we will be in our actions when we are present." (2 Corinthians 10:9-11)

"After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea." (Colossians 4:16)

"I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers." (1 Thessalonians 5:27)

"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

"If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed." (2 Thessalonians 3:14)

"I, Paul, write this greeting in my own hand, which is the distinguishing mark in all my letters. This is how I write." (2 Thessalonians 3:17)

Paul never referred to his letters as new books of Scripture, nor did he ever describe anyone else's writings as being new books of Scripture. Certainly Paul's letters are inspired Scripture, but the point is that Paul never made any kind of reference to a "New Testament" or a new set of Scriptures. We have no Scriptural evidence for taking Paul's vague statement, "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," as being a reference to the completed New Testament because Paul never mentioned such a thing as a "New Testament." In fact, after Paul died, roughly 75 years went by before anyone even tried to formally put together a new set of Scriptures, which we now call "the New Testament" (The History of Christianity, Dr. Tim Dowley, p.106)(There is another reference for you DHK!). This makes it even less likely that Paul had such a thing in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10.

 

[DHK]

Again..you are so bent on proving my every word wrong...you missed the part where I said how he (Paul) normally used this word! I did not quote every verse in the Bible!

This is what you said:

Apart from the verse we are studying (1 Corinthians 13:10), Paul used teleios seven other times in the New Testament:

It is untruthful; a lie. The word is used 19 times, not 8 times.
Not once is it translated "mature." It is translated "perfect" 17 times out of those 19.
How can you justify such a post?
If you are going to post "facts" then post them accurately and give a source for your information.

 

[DHK]

Paul never referred to his letters as new books of Scripture, nor did he ever describe anyone else's writings as being new books of Scripture. Certainly Paul's letters are inspired Scripture, but the point is that Paul never made any kind of reference to a "New Testament" or a new set of Scriptures. We have no Scriptural evidence for taking Paul's vague statement, "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," as being a reference to the completed New Testament because Paul never mentioned such a thing as a "New Testament." In fact, after Paul died, roughly 75 years went by before anyone even tried to formally put together a new set of Scriptures, which we now call "the New Testament" (The History of Christianity, Dr. Tim Dowley, p.106)(There is another reference for you DHK!). This makes it even less likely that Paul had such a thing in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:10.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
--Peter considered the epistles of Paul as Scripture, and apparently knew which ones were and which ones were not. I say that because Paul wrote 4 epistles to the Corinthians, and only two were inspired, but Peter knew which ones they were.

1 Corinthians 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
--This is a claim to inspiration. Paul is saying that these words are not his but the Lord's.

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
--Paul was never in the upper room with the disciples.
And yet he quotes the exact words of Jesus and what happened there. How did he know? These are the words of the Lord, Scripture. They are the inspired words of God.
Or, are you an unbeliever and don't believe the inspired word of God?

Your theory implies that the Apostles were dumb and stupid and not intelligent enough to teach the early church which of their writings were inspired and which were not. They had the completed canon of Scripture by the time John wrote Revelation. They had the books as they were written. It is evident that at the time of Peter, he knew which of Paul's epistles were Scripture, and refers to them as such.

 

[DHK]

Paul said that when "perfection" comes, then the "imperfect" will disappear:

"But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears." (1 Corinthians 13:8-10)

Do you make up your own translation? Which is this one? The KJV puts it much more accurately.
"For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect is come then that which is in part shall be done away."
--The perfect or completed Word of God came.
That which was in part--the revelatory gifts mentioned in 13:8 ceased as it says they would. They were temporary gifts until the "perfect" or complete had come. Those revelatory gifts were only temporary. They were to last for a short period of time.

It is clear from the context that the word "imperfect" refers to the spiritual gifts that are mentioned here, although this obviously does not mean that the Holy Spirit is imperfect or that His gifts are imperfect! The gifts of the Spirit are for our use while we are in these fallen, physical bodies on earth, and it is our use of the spiritual gifts which is imperfect, because Paul said that "we know in part and we prophesy in part."

Paul uses the word or phrase "in part." So why did you change it to "imperfect"? There is no imperfect in that passage. Who told you that there was anything imperfect?

However, when "perfection" comes, meaning the perfection or completion of our salvation at the Rapture (or when we get to heaven, whichever comes first), then we will no longer need these gifts of the Spirit.

Salvation is a feminine noun and teleios is a neuter word. Therefore salvation does not fit, and cannot be the subject at hand here. It also does not fit the subject of revelation.

Notice what Paul said will happen when we receive the completion or perfection of our salvation:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed --in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." (1 Corinthians 15:51-53)

But that is not the subject in 1Cor.13:8-13, nor do the words agree in gender.

It is this completion and perfection of our salvation which Paul was referring to in 1 Corinthians 13:10, not the completion of the New Testament

It makes no sense whatsoever. It doesn't fit the context of "revelation."
They don't agree with gender.
You are way out on a limb on this.

 

[awaken]

Your theory implies that the Apostles were dumb and stupid and not intelligent enough to teach the early church which of their writings were inspired and which were not. They had the completed canon of Scripture by the time John wrote Revelation. They had the books as they were written. It is evident that at the time of Peter, he knew which of Paul's epistles were Scripture, and refers to them as such.

Again, you missed the point of the post if that is all you got out of it!

 

[awaken]

.
You are way out on a limb on this.

Only because it does not fit your interpretation...really!

 

[awaken]

Paul's use of the word "perfection" is rather vague, but he elaborated on this statement with three illustrations, all of which deal with our maturity as believers. Not one of these illustrations has any bearing on the completed New Testament.

Paul's first illustration is in 1 Corinthians 13:11, which immediately follows his use of the word "perfection":

"but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me." (1 Corinthians 13:10-11)

Paul's illustration speaks of maturity, but notice that he was not talking about the maturity of the New Testament. He was talking about our maturity as believers, which will finally be "perfected" or "completed" when we are transformed at the return of Christ (see 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, Philippians 3:20-21, and 1 John 3:2 ).

Since Paul used a description of spiritual maturity to elaborate on his statement that "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," it provides further confirmation that this "perfection" does not refer to the completion of the New Testament.

 

[Revmitchell]

My point is that the Bible does not make the claim that they have ceased!

I know what your point is. You are using this thread to prove your other theories about Apostle and gifts. It does not prove what you intend even though I agree that the Bible does not make the assertion that they are currently ceased.

 

[awaken]

I know what your point is. You are using this thread to prove your other theories about Apostle and gifts. It does not prove what you intend even though I agree that the Bible does not make the assertion that they are currently ceased.

NO, this has nothing to do with the apostles! Gifts? Yes! So if you can prove with scriptures that they have not ceased or can add to the debate...it is welcome! But we will just have to disagree on the apostles and move on. I stated my case in that thread....this one is about "Have the gifts ever 'died out'."

 

[Revmitchell]

NO, this has nothing to do with the apostles! Gifts? Yes! So if you can prove with scriptures that they have not ceased or can add to the debate...it is welcome! But we will just have to disagree on the apostles and move on. I stated my case in that thread....this one is about "Have the gifts ever 'died out'."

Uh huh................................

 

[awaken]

Here is the next illustration that Paul used to describe "perfection" (which immediately follows the previous illustration):

"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face." (1 Corinthians 13:12)

The exact same Greek phrase ("see face to face") is used in the Greek version of the Old Testament for seeing God face to face:

"So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."" (Genesis 32:30)

The apostle John confirms for us that we will see God as He is (face to face) after Jesus returns for us and "perfects" our bodies at the Rapture:

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

Paul explained his statement about "perfection" by saying that "we shall see face to face," and we can see that it has nothing to do with the completion of the New Testament. Instead, it refers to our being transformed and taken into heaven when Jesus comes for us at the Rapture. Since Paul used this illustration to elaborate on his statement that "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears," it provides further confirmation that this "perfection" does not refer to the completion of the New Testament.

 

[awaken]

Uh huh................................

Well, if the snide remarks are all you have...then I guess you can not add anything to the debate! Those kind of post only take away from the discussions of God's Word!

If you believe the gifts are still here...how do you defend it...by scriptures! I would like to know...since I have not heard your take on this!

 

[Alcott]

Go to a local funeral home and raise a dead somebody, as Peter did Dorcas, if these operate like they did in the age of the apostles.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, if the snide remarks are all you have...then I guess you can not add anything to the debate! Those kind of post only take away from the discussions of God's Word!

If you believe the gifts are still here...how do you defend it...by scriptures! I would like to know...since I have not heard your take on this!

I recognize that I hold a minority position here Awaken but when I read scripture , i dont see anything to tell me that the HS has stopped having sovereignty. The apostle Peter said on the day of Pentecost, "The promise is unto you, and to your children, and to as many as afar off,"but there are those who seem to think that because we live in modern times, that this kind of thinking is no longer prevalent. Yea well, I beg to differ.....I see that thinking to some extent as a denial of the gospel. This is what God's people are offered at all times in all places; there is no limit placed upon it at all. That is my viewpoint from my own understanding of Scripture.....and we don't have raise anybody from the dead to prove our beliefs, that isn't our jobs...its His. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Yeshua1]

NO, this has nothing to do with the apostles! Gifts? Yes! So if you can prove with scriptures that they have not ceased or can add to the debate...it is welcome! But we will just have to disagree on the apostles and move on. I stated my case in that thread....this one is about "Have the gifts ever 'died out'."

problem for you is that NONE here say all gifts of the HS have ceased. JUST the ones granted unto the Apostles By Christ have!..

Since NONE can be Apsotles as the 12 and paul were, and that office has ceased, their Gifts ceased with that office closing down!

we ALL agree God still grants some teaching gift, preaching, leading, mercy, giving etc!

We also hold that God can choose to do a miracle/to heal still as He deems fit, but NONE have that Gift to do such, its God in response toprayers and as He wills!

 

[awaken]

I recognize that I hold a minority position here Awaken but when I read scripture , i dont see anything to tell me that the HS has stopped having sovereignty. The apostle Peter said on the day of Pentecost, "The promise is unto you, and to your children, and to as many as afar off,"but there are those who seem to think that because we live in modern times, that this kind of thinking is no longer prevalent. Yea well, I beg to differ.....I see that thinking to some extent as a denial of the gospel. This is what God's people are offered at all times in all places; there is no limit placed upon it at all. That is my viewpoint from my own understanding of Scripture.....and we don't have raise anybody from the dead to prove our beliefs, that isn't our jobs...its His. :smilewinkgrin:

Very well put!!:applause::applause: