Have Any Spiritual Gifts Ever "Died Out"?

[awaken]

It is easy for modern Christians to assume that our non-miraculous church experience is normal, and that the people in the early years of the Church were "special" people living in a "special" time who experienced a "supercharged" form of church life. But what infallible source of information are we using which tells us that a lack of miracles is normal for modern times? The only infallible source of written information that we have is the Bible, and the Bible shows that miracles are to be expected throughout the Church Age. The New Testament does not provide us with any instructions or examples for a non-miraculous form of church. Instead, the New Testament is filled with instructional examples of how signs, wonders, miracles, and the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are supposed to operate throughout the Church Age, and there are numerous instructions given to us for the orderly use of these miraculous spiritual gifts in the body of Christ (read chapters 12, 13, and 14 of 1 Corinthians).

Further, neither Jesus nor the writers of Scripture ever described two Churches, meaning an "early Church" (which ended when the New Testament was completed) and a "modern Church," so these terms are misleading. There is only one Church, and only one Church Age, and only one body of Christ, and therefore we are part of the same New Testament Church that was born at Pentecost. To illustrate this, consider a new Christian who has not absorbed any biases from Christian friends or church leaders. Imagine that he is so hungry to know the Lord that he reads through the entire New Testament several times. When this person goes to church for the very first time in his life, wouldn't he expect to see people sometimes speaking in tongues, laying hands on the sick, prophesying, and so on? After all, this is the only type of church experience which is described in the New Testament!

The entire Church Age (from Pentecost until the Rapture) is supposed to be an age of miracles, and this includes all of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit. Jesus told the disciples that they will receive power when they are baptized in the Holy Spirit, and this happened after they were saved. After we become saved, we also need to be baptized with the Holy Spirit in order to receive spiritual empowerment.

 

[DHK]

And as he showed them a better way...he did not explain away the gifts. He showed them how WITH LOVE to manifest them!

1Cor.13:8 said they would cease and they have. You don't like that interpretation so you go to great lengths to distort it.

You are sooo wrong on that one! He said "forbid not speaking in tongues"...see how your doctrines contradict other scriptures!

If the above premise is true, then that makes the command to "forbid not to speak in tongues" moot. It doesn't apply because they have ceased. Use some logic here.

Where does it say listen in that context? That one little word "listen" changed the whole meaning to fit your theory!

It means use your brain.
You do not find that in scipture! Just the opposite! He said in vs. 4 he said he would rather that YE (you) prophesy! Talking about taking things our of context??? YOU even add your own words![/quote]
I have added my own explanation to those who are hard of understanding. The verse was a rebuke. He was telling them that prophesy was a better gift. They were speaking in tongues without translation and the end result was just nonsense.

Tongue with interpretation edifies the body just as much as prophesy! He still says he would like everyone to speak in tongues...

First, the problem was: there was no interpretation.
Second, it was not as profitable as those who had the gift of prophecy. Paul made that clear plenty of times. It was an inferior gift. Look in 1Cor.12:28ff. In importance it is listed last of all the gifts.

Context vs. 5 shows that tongues with interpretation does edify! He shows this by the word "except"...Context, context!!!

But they weren't using interpretation. Context!

Sorry, my Bible does not have DHK editing! "Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues." (1 Corinthians 14:39) Only the people that are in unbelief concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit believes this!

The gifts have ceased according to 1Cor.13:8ff. They had other purposes as well. Accordingly they have ceased. They serve no valid purpose. Forbid not in the first century when they served a purpose. It is like the Ten Plagues of Moses. They can't be repeated.

Careful..you mignt be quenching the Spirit just by adding DHK' theology into scripture! But I do agree that we are not to speak gibberish! Biblical tongues is a different matter though!

This is utter foolishness. Show me once in all of Eph.4, where the command is found, where tongues are mentioned. It is nowhere in the context. Talking about taking Scripture out of context. I suppose Abraham quenched the Holy Spirit because he never spoke in tongues either. He lived about 2,000 years before Pentecost just as we live 2,000 years after. There is no difference.

Don't know about all churches that believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit...but just Wednesday night we had a prophesy service...not one prophesy was wrong! Prophesy is on a personal level...It does not change or alter the Word of God! It always agrees! It always edifies! AGAIN! Yes, there are false out there!

What was prophesied and how do you know it came true.
I suppose if you prophesy that the sun will rise tomorrow, it may come true. You have a bunch of charlatans if you think they have the gift of prophesy. Everyone who goes to the horse races thinks they have the gift of prophesy too, but most of them lose the money that they "prophesied" they would win. Did they prophesy correctly who would win the lottery?

One more comment toward this remark...you can prophesy and not be a prophet! We all are to desire prophesy!

The only ones that could do that were the ones that were giving Scripture that one day would be added to the Word of God. They were prophesying Scripture that was not written down yet. You are telling me that what they are saying is inspired and should be added to the Bible, that what they are saying is the actual word of God. That is heresy.

You can not handle the truth presented without those verses! I guess you still have not searched out the snakes and poison in the Bible have you?

It says what it means. You wan to allegorize the passage like Origen taught the people to do. Origen was a heretic, even considered to be a heretic by the RCC. He was the Father of Arianism. You can throw your lot in with him if you wish, but I take the Bible for what it is. Go drink your Draino.

Signs followed and confirmed HIS WORD! Yes, the apostles taught his word!

But they don't follow you do they. In that alone you prove they have ceased.

 

[awaken]

1Cor.13:8 said they would cease and they have. You don't like that interpretation so you go to great lengths to distort it.

I not only do not like your interpretation....it contradicts scripture! I am not distorting anything! I made my stand and backed it up with scripture! You, like everyone else can make your own mind up what you want to believe and live out!

If the above premise is true, then that makes the command to "forbid not to speak in tongues" moot. It doesn't apply because they have ceased. Use some logic here.

What kind of logic is that? Scriptures are plain if you are not trying to push your man made doctrine into it! He corrected the misuse...and he said forbid not! THat is plain! You just don't like it because it puts a monkey wrench in your belief!

It means use your brain.

No! you added one word and changed the whole meaning! A Word that is not in that context! Take out the word listen and it does not mean the same thing!

I have added my own explanation to those who are hard of understanding. The verse was a rebuke. He was telling them that prophesy was a better gift. They were speaking in tongues without translation and the end result was just nonsense.

No, you added your own word and changed the meaning to fit your man made doctrines.
Yes! Corinthians was a rebuke book...so lets get passed that!
The rebuke was tongues without the interpretaton is of no use in the assembly. BUT if there is an interpretation then tongues will edify!
Bottom line...Do not speak in tongues in the assembly without an interpretation! We agree on that...don't add or take away from what it actually says!

First, the problem was: there was no interpretation.
Second, it was not as profitable as those who had the gift of prophecy. Paul made that clear plenty of times. It was an inferior gift. Look in 1Cor.12:28ff. In importance it is listed last of all the gifts.

Why can't you get passed tongues? Again, 1 Cor. is plain if you throw out you preconceived teachings!
The gifts of tongues was profitable with interpretation! YOu keep looking over the word "EXCEPT' in verse 5! You are good at adding to or ignoring "key words" to fit your doctrine!

But they weren't using interpretation. Context!

I have no idea what that response proves! I have said over and over...tongues with interpretation is edifying...without interpretation in the the assembly..it is not edifying!

The gifts have ceased according to 1Cor.13:8ff. They had other purposes as well. Accordingly they have ceased. They serve no valid purpose. Forbid not in the first century when they served a purpose. It is like the Ten Plagues of Moses. They can't be repeated.

I only have one response to this! In order for you to stay in unbelief concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit...you keep saying that to yourself!

This is utter foolishness. Show me once in all of Eph.4, where the command is found, where tongues are mentioned. It is nowhere in the context. Talking about taking Scripture out of context. I suppose Abraham quenched the Holy Spirit because he never spoke in tongues either. He lived about 2,000 years before Pentecost just as we live 2,000 years after. There is no difference.

Your fustration is showing....Show me in NT where the Lord's supper is mentioned after Pentecost other than 1 Cor.?
Tongues is never mentioned until the Day of Pentecost, other than Jesus himself mentioned it in Mark 16. Maybe you need to ask yourself, why?

What was prophesied and how do you know it came true.
I suppose if you prophesy that the sun will rise tomorrow, it may come true. You have a bunch of charlatans if you think they have the gift of prophesy. Everyone who goes to the horse races thinks they have the gift of prophesy too, but most of them lose the money that they "prophesied" they would win. Did they prophesy correctly who would win the lottery?

Because one prophesy was over my family! But I will not share my personal experiences in detail with anyone on this board..unless I think they REALLY are interested! You only want me to share to tear me apart as you have done before! So lets stick to discussing the Word and keep the personal out of it! You can stay in your unbelief concerning prophesy too! But it sure was edifying in service!

The only ones that could do that were the ones that were giving Scripture that one day would be added to the Word of God. They were prophesying Scripture that was not written down yet. You are telling me that what they are saying is inspired and should be added to the Bible, that what they are saying is the actual word of God. That is heresy.

NO, that is scriptural...I said no prophesy adds or takes away from the Written Word of God! IT is always in agreement! I am sorry if God does not speak to your spirit outside the written word on a personal level...but He does mine..and many more!

It says what it means. You wan to allegorize the passage like Origen taught the people to do. Origen was a heretic, even considered to be a heretic by the RCC. He was the Father of Arianism. You can throw your lot in with him if you wish, but I take the Bible for what it is. Go drink your Draino..

They understood what he was talking about, DHK! He spoke to them the same as he spoke in other scriptures concerning snakes and poison! You do not understand or want to understand because it messes up your theology! I will have to admit that part had me stomped for a long time! But I kept praying and searching! The answer was plain once I found it!

But they don't follow you do they. In that alone you prove they have ceased

That is sad to prove or disaprove the Bible by one person's personal walk!
Maybe you answered the question..."Why don't we see more of these signs following?" Maybe because people are not preaching the WORD (doctrine of the apostles and Jesus) the way we are suppose to! MAYBE we leave parts of it out...like believing He still can and does!

 

[DHK]

That is sad to prove or disaprove the Bible by one person's personal walk!
Maybe you answered the question..."Why don't we see more of these signs following?" Maybe because people are not preaching the WORD (doctrine of the apostles and Jesus) the way we are suppose to! MAYBE we leave parts of it out...like believing He still can and does!

There have been no documented gifts of miraculous wonders, signs, miracles, gifts of healings, gifts of miracles or the Biblical gift of speaking in other languages since the first century. There is no evidence anywhere of that happening. Yet you say they are still for today. You can't provide the evidence. You blindly put your faith in this so-called "manifestation of the Spirit" which you never see. No evidence. But you claim they are in operation, but have never seen it.
Why should anyone believe you any more than they should believe there are cheese-eating aliens on Pluto that will take care of you if you eat cheese too.

 

[awaken]

There have been no documented gifts of miraculous wonders, signs, miracles, gifts of healings, gifts of miracles or the Biblical gift of speaking in other languages since the first century. There is no evidence anywhere of that happening. Yet you say they are still for today. You can't provide the evidence. You blindly put your faith in this so-called "manifestation of the Spirit" which you never see. No evidence. But you claim they are in operation, but have never seen it.
Why should anyone believe you any more than they should believe there are cheese-eating aliens on Pluto that will take care of you if you eat cheese too.

Don't believe me....believe the WORD OF GOD!
WHat? YOu did not respond to my WHOLE post line for line?????
Just this short response to my whole post....wow! Someone must be avoiding the rebuttle like I have been accused of.....

 

[DHK]

Don't believe me....believe the WORD OF GOD!
WHat? YOu did not respond to my WHOLE post line for line?????
Just this short response to my whole post....wow! Someone must be avoiding the rebuttle like I have been accused of.....

I believe the Word of God, but it is apparent you don't. I took the last part of your post to disprove the whole of what you said. If the gifts were in existence today they would be here. But they are not.
Who exercises the gift of miracles?
Who exercises the gift of healing as Peter did in Acts 5:16?
Who exercises the gift of languages as Paul was able to, and speak in foreign languages as God gave him the ability to?
All you have is gibberish which isn't even a gift.

 

[awaken]

I believe the Word of God, but it is apparent you don't. I took the last part of your post to disprove the whole of what you said. If the gifts were in existence today they would be here. But they are not.
Who exercises the gift of miracles?
Who exercises the gift of healing as Peter did in Acts 5:16?
Who exercises the gift of languages as Paul was able to, and speak in foreign languages as God gave him the ability to?
All you have is gibberish which isn't even a gift.

Then stay in your little box of unbelief concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! THen you will probably never experience it!

I shared what God had opened up to me...I did not receive it for a long time either...but the seed had been planted! Only God can spring it up...but again the ground can't be hardened with unbelief....

 

[DHK]

Then stay in your little box of unbelief concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! THen you will probably never experience it!

I shared what God had opened up to me...I did not receive it for a long time either...but the seed had been planted! Only God can spring it up...but again the ground can't be hardened with unbelief....

It is called blind faith (on your part).
It is the same faith that Muslim extremists have when they strap a bomb on and blow themselves up. They blindly believe (without evidence) that they will go straight to Paradise. But why? What evidence do they have?

Why? What evidence do you have?
None of the gifts mentioned are in existence. You have blind faith. You life is no better than that of a Muslim extremist. You blindly believe something that doesn't exist and yet affirm that it does. You are the one that remains in unbelief--unbelief in what the Bible says is true--

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

They were promised to cease, and they have.

 

[awaken]

It is called blind faith (on your part).
It is the same faith that Muslim extremists have when they strap a bomb on and blow themselves up. They blindly believe (without evidence) that they will go straight to Paradise. But why? What evidence do they have
Why? What evidence do you have?
None of the gifts mentioned are in existence. You have blind faith. You life is no better than that of a Muslim extremist. You blindly believe something that doesn't exist and yet affirm that it does. You are the one that remains in unbelief--unbelief in what the Bible says is true--

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

They were promised to cease, and they have.

In the world seeing is believing in the kingdom believing is seeing. Faith is not the absence of facts (I get my facts from the Bible) it is the presence of conviction. Is there such thing as blind faith?... because faith sees what is not yet visible.

 

[DHK]

In the world seeing is believing in the kingdom believing is seeing. Faith is not the absence of facts (I get my facts from the Bible) it is the presence of conviction. Is there such thing as blind faith?... because faith sees what is not yet visible.

Faith is always grounded on evidence.
Will that Muslim extremist end up in Paradise with 72 virgins catering to his every wish? No. He will end up in eternal torment in Hell. He has no foundation for his faith. It is blind faith.

The foundation for my faith is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The resurrection of Christ is the cornerstone of Christianity. Because he lives we also live. The object of my faith is Christ. Faith has a foundation and faith has an object.

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Without the resurrection all of what I believe is vain; my faith is vain.
The Word of God is true because the resurrection is true, and what Christ said about the Word is true.
I don't blindly believe in gifts or the present reality of miraculous gifts without evidence. They aren't happening because they have ceased. They ceased 2,000 years ago.
They ceased according to the Scriptures.
They ceased according to history.
They ceased according to present day evidence.

But you go along in your imaginary world believing they exist even though you have no evidence. That is a shame.

 

[awaken]

Faith is always grounded on evidence.
Will that Muslim extremist end up in Paradise with 72 virgins catering to his every wish? No. He will end up in eternal torment in Hell. He has no foundation for his faith. It is blind faith.

My evidence is the Word of God! He said it! I believe it!

The foundation for my faith is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The resurrection of Christ is the cornerstone of Christianity. Because he lives we also live. The object of my faith is Christ. Faith has a foundation and faith has an object.

Just like the Written Word says! THat is what I base my salvation on too! Even though I have not seen Jesus or have I received the completion of my salvation! I believe because His Word says it!

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Without the resurrection all of what I believe is vain; my faith is vain.
The Word of God is true because the resurrection is true, and what Christ said about the Word is true.

But you did not see it with your own eyes! You believe someone elses account of it...whether it is history or the Bible!

I don't blindly believe in gifts or the present reality of miraculous gifts without evidence. They aren't happening because they have ceased. They ceased 2,000 years ago.
They ceased according to the Scriptures.
They ceased according to history.
They ceased according to present day evidence.

But you go along in your imaginary world believing they exist even though you have no evidence. That is a shame.

I would not give up my experiences with Jesus for anything! Not even your unbelief! You want to explain away scriptures because they are not evident in your life!

 

[DHK]

My evidence is the Word of God! He said it! I believe it!

No you don't. You believe your interpretation of the word of God, but not the Word itself. There is a big difference there. You ignore 1800 years of those before 1905 and tell us that they are all wrong even though hundreds of them were highly educated and Spirit-filled Christians. You just flippantly dismiss them all--1800 years of Biblical history, missions, revivals, etc. Amazing! Yet, none of them believe in YOUR interpretation.

Just like the Written Word says! THat is what I base my salvation on too! Even though I have not seen Jesus or have I received the completion of my salvation! I believe because His Word says it!

Sure, you believe the gospel, but the gospel is not the foundation for believing that the gifts of the Spirit are operable today.
You misunderstand still about faith.
I know my great grandfather lived. I have never seen him, but I have evidence that he lived.
I know that Shakespeare lived; that Nero lived, and that Christ lived.
I didn't have to see them. I have the evidence. I also have the evidence of the resurrected Christ. But there is no evidence in the last 1900 years of the sign gifts taking place. There is none. There is no foundation for believing this.

But you did not see it with your own eyes! You believe someone elses account of it...whether it is history or the Bible!

I didn't have to. I have evidence.
But there is no evidence of the sign gifts. There is a difference.

I would not give up my experiences with Jesus for anything! Not even your unbelief! You want to explain away scriptures because they are not evident in your life!

Your experiences are more important to you than the word of God.
Like I pointed out to you before, you base your doctrine on your experience, rather than on the Word. Your experience is your foundation which you build upon. That is why you are confused.

My foundation is the Word of God. It is my final authority on all matters of faith and doctrine. That is the difference between you and I.

 

[awaken]

No you don't. You believe your interpretation of the word of God, but not the Word itself. There is a big difference there. You ignore 1800 years of those before 1905 and tell us that they are all wrong even though hundreds of them were highly educated and Spirit-filled Christians. You just flippantly dismiss them all--1800 years of Biblical history, missions, revivals, etc. Amazing! Yet, none of them believe in YOUR interpretation.

But I am living my interpretation!

Sure, you believe the gospel, but the gospel is not the foundation for believing that the gifts of the Spirit are operable today.
You misunderstand still about faith.
I know my great grandfather lived. I have never seen him, but I have evidence that he lived.
I know that Shakespeare lived; that Nero lived, and that Christ lived.
I didn't have to see them. I have the evidence. I also have the evidence of the resurrected Christ. But there is no evidence in the last 1900 years of the sign gifts taking place. There is none. There is no foundation for believing this.

Really, Faith is Faith! YOu have to have Faith to please God! I know that the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is real...not only was it in history..recorded in the Bible...but I am living it and witnessing it in my life now!

I didn't have to. I have evidence.
But there is no evidence of the sign gifts. There is a difference.

Well, you chose not to believe what the Bible says we can have! How can you experience something you do not have faith in that still exist today!

Your experiences are more important to you than the word of God.
Like I pointed out to you before, you base your doctrine on your experience, rather than on the Word. Your experience is your foundation which you build upon. That is why you are confused.

My exerience is confirmation to me that what I believe is real! You and others accuse me of twisting words....well you twist my personal experience with my Savior. I have NEVER said I experienced anything BEFORE I first believed (had faith) in what the word says!

My foundation is the Word of God. It is my final authority on all matters of faith and doctrine. That is the difference between you and I.

No,your lack of faith in what it actually means is the difference between us! I believe it! I live it (experience it)!

 

[DHK]

But I am living my interpretation!

As I mentioned your interpretation throws away 1900 years of Biblical scholarship, those that believed and studied the Bible far more than you will ever do in your lifetime and never came to the same interpretation that you did over a period of 1900 years. How, therefore, can you claim your interpretation to be right.
Furthermore you seem ignorant about the beginnings of the beliefs and origin of the doctrines that you now practice. Here is how it began:

The Azusa Street revival lasted until 1909 and was visited by thousands, although shortly after its beginnings Parham and Seymour suffered an irreparable breach
over Seymour’s refusal to prohibit seances and occult trances from the revival services. It is generally conceded that virtually every Pentecostal Movement worldwide can trace its origins directly to the Azusa Street Revival

http://www.christianfallacies.com/articles/forsyth/historyOfCharismaticMovement.html
Your beliefs are rooted and grounded in the Occult.

Really, Faith is Faith! YOu have to have Faith to please God! I know that the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is real...not only was it in history..recorded in the Bible...but I am living it and witnessing it in my life now!

Faith is not faith. What kind of definition is that? Look it up in a dictionary if you don't know what it means.
Faith is confidence in the word of another.
Here is a definition right out of the Bible.
Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
--Faith is being fully persuaded that what God has promised he will do.
It is based on evidence. Look at verse 20 What evidence did Abraham have? He had the direct promise of God? That is the foundation of his promise. The object of his faith was God himself.
You simply say faith is faith; have blind faith, not understanding what faith really is.

Well, you chose not to believe what the Bible says we can have! How can you experience something you do not have faith in that still exist today!

I have faith in what the Bible teaches is for today; not that which the Bible declares is not for today. I don't believe Moses is going to come knocking on my door today and ask me if I would like to see a miracle today. But you say faith is faith. It is a typical occultish Charismatic response.
There is no basis for for faith in the coming of Moses today.
There is no basis for a demonstration of the sign gifts today, and hasn't been for the last 2,000 years, and yet you blindly believe that anyway. It is blind believe. You have never seen them. It is just blind belief. Why not believe in the coming of Moses as well? Blind belief! No basis in reality. No foundation.

My exerience is confirmation to me that what I believe is real! You and others accuse me of twisting words....well you twist my personal experience with my Savior. I have NEVER said I experienced anything BEFORE I first believed (had faith) in what the word says!

It is based on a misguided misinterpretation of the Word based on the occult. You really haven't studied this out, have you? It is not based on the Word. Why do you dismiss 1900 years of scholarship and some of the greatest spiritual movements and the working of the Spirit ever seen? You say they didn't have the Spirit, or fullness of the Spirit, but revivals swept Europe and America that you haven't even read about. You just dismiss it all.

No,your lack of faith in what it actually means is the difference between us! I believe it! I live it (experience it)!

It is not I that has a lack of faith.
You don't even know what faith is, as demonstrated in this very post.
You don't know it. You experience something started in the Occult.

Read more about it here.
http://www.christianfallacies.com/articles/forsyth/historyOfCharismaticMovement.html

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/char/more/hist.htm

 

[awaken]

As I mentioned your interpretation throws away 1900 years of Biblical scholarship, those that believed and studied the Bible far more than you will ever do in your lifetime and never came to the same interpretation that you did over a period of 1900 years. How, therefore, can you claim your interpretation to be right.
Furthermore you seem ignorant about the beginnings of the beliefs and origin of the doctrines that you now practice. Here is how it began:

http://www.christianfallacies.com/articles/forsyth/historyOfCharismaticMovement.html
Your beliefs are rooted and grounded in the Occult.

You can not take away my walk with God by your unbelief in the Word of God concerning this! I am living out what the Bible says I can....in the power He said I can!

Faith is not faith. What kind of definition is that? Look it up in a dictionary if you don't know what it means.
Faith is confidence in the word of another.
Here is a definition right out of the Bible.
Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
--Faith is being fully persuaded that what God has promised he will do.
It is based on evidence. Look at verse 20 What evidence did Abraham have? He had the direct promise of God? That is the foundation of his promise. The object of his faith was God himself.
You simply say faith is faith; have blind faith, not understanding what faith really is.

Exactly...I have direct promises of God, from His Word! That is the foundation for my faith! I am sorry you do not believe some of the Word and not walking in it your self! I sincerly am!
Let me give you an even better definition of "Faith".."Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Before we see it..we have faith! You want proof..you can not take His word for what it says..you have to explain it away! THerefore you will probably never see it manifested in your life! Before we see our completed salvation manifested in our lives, we have to believe HIS WORD!

I have faith in what the Bible teaches is for today; not that which the Bible declares is not for today. I don't believe Moses is going to come knocking on my door today and ask me if I would like to see a miracle today.

Good for you, I wouldn't hold our for that myself. Why? Because it it not in His Word that he will!

But you say faith is faith. It is a typical occultish Charismatic response.
There is no basis for for faith in the coming of Moses today.
There is no basis for a demonstration of the sign gifts today, and hasn't been for the last 2,000 years, and yet you blindly believe that anyway. It is blind believe. You have never seen them. It is just blind belief. Why not believe in the coming of Moses as well? Blind belief! No basis in reality. No foundation.

Wrong on this account! It is in His Word..I believed it...and I am living it!

It is based on a misguided misinterpretation of the Word based on the occult. You really haven't studied this out, have you? It is not based on the Word. Why do you dismiss 1900 years of scholarship and some of the greatest spiritual movements and the working of the Spirit ever seen? You say they didn't have the Spirit, or fullness of the Spirit, but revivals swept Europe and America that you haven't even read about. You just dismiss it all.

I did not seek any movement, history or religion to guide me into what I am living out now...why would I want to confirm it by that means? God has confirmed to me over and over that it is from Him in ways only He could...SO THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN POST THAT WILL TAKE THIS AWAY...NOTHING!!!

It is not I that has a lack of faith.
You don't even know what faith is, as demonstrated in this very post.
You don't know it. You experience something started in the Occult.

Read more about it here.
http://www.christianfallacies.com/articles/forsyth/historyOfCharismaticMovement.html

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/char/more/hist.htm

I have no desire to read your hunt to prove the Bible wrong on this! You forget I have been on both sides of this! You can claim all sorts of false out there, but it does not prove what I am experiencing fake or false! Everything I have experienced I can back up with scriptures! So lets quit wasting everyones time and respond to the thread instead of my personal walk! You resort to that along with others on this board when you can not back up your own unbelief concerning it!

 

[DHK]

You can not take away my walk with God by your unbelief in the Word of God concerning this! I am living out what the Bible says I can....in the power He said I can!

I am not in the business of taking away a person's walk with God.
I have total belief and faith in the Word of God.
You can live out your Christian life in the way you know how, but even according to your own testimony you cannot:
1. perform miracles.
2. do not have the gift of healing as in Acts 5:16,
3. do not have the Biblical gift of languages.

So, what do you have, but hypocrisy--saying you have something that you don't. You say you have the "manifestation," but you can't demonstrate it.
Isn't that living a lie??

Exactly...I have direct promises of God, from His Word! That is the foundation for my faith! I am sorry you do not believe some of the Word and not walking in it your self! I sincerly am!

What promises?
Miracles? Healings? Languages?
You say you have them but you can't demonstrate them. Pleeeeeeaaase!!!
Give me a break!!! Why are you telling me you have something you don't have. There is such a thing as evidence which you cannot provide. I believe the promises of God--those promises that God has promised to us.
But not every promise in the Bible is directed to us:
For example:
Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
--Is this your promise, directed to you?

Genesis 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
--Is this promise directed to you?

Judges 6:21 Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.
22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face.
--Will the Lord give you a sign just like this one awaken?

And so the sign gifts; the gifts of the Spirit are not for today either.
The Bible teaches it; History verifies it; Lack of current evidence is further proof.

Let me give you an even better definition of "Faith".."Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

This is not a definition as some think. It is a description of faith. Learn the difference. To see your error just take a simple dictionary and look up the word "faith." Then you will understand how it fits with the definition I gave you: trust, confidence--in another person, in the word of another. Faith is not blind.

Before we see it..we have faith!

You also have foolishness if it is not based on facts. Blind faith is nothing but foolishness--the equivalent of blowing yourself up and thinking you will go to Paradise.

You want proof..you can not take His word for what it says..you have to explain it away! THerefore you will probably never see it manifested in your life! Before we see our completed salvation manifested in our lives, we have to believe HIS WORD!

You are right. I may never see God heal thousands at one time, and every one of them without exception healed like Peter did in Acts 5:16. However, by your own testimony, neither will you.
I may never experience the gift of tongues. I wish God had given me that gift since I am a missionary to a nation that speaks many languages. But he didn't give me the gift of languages, and to my knowledge hasn't given it to anyone for the last 1900 years. I am not saying it is impossible, but it is not something that would be very common, as it was in the first century. It is not a common gift of the Spirit. In fact it is unheard of.
I may never experience the gift of miracles, and neither will you. According to your testimony you haven't. Of course not. That gift has ceased. You can't point to anyone that has that gift.
This has nothing to do with my belief/faith or yours.
It has to do with God's will and purposes for this day and age.

Good for you, I wouldn't hold our for that myself. Why? Because it it not in His Word that he will!

Neither are gifts of the Spirit.

Wrong on this account! It is in His Word..I believed it...and I am living it!

God spoke to Moses through a burning bush.
Moses divided the Red Sea via the power of God.
It is in the Word...I believe it. But I don't live out those miracles in my life.
They aren't for me.
Neither are the sign gifts are for you. And you can't perform them, can you?

I did not seek any movement, history or religion to guide me into what I am living out now...why would I want to confirm it by that means? God has confirmed to me over and over that it is from Him in ways only He could...SO THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN POST THAT WILL TAKE THIS AWAY...NOTHING!!!

Learn what you are doing then; don't be ignorant of these things.
A wise man once said:
"One thing we never learn from history is that we never learn from history."

I have no desire to read your hunt to prove the Bible wrong on this! You forget I have been on both sides of this! You can claim all sorts of false out there, but it does not prove what I am experiencing fake or false! Everything I have experienced I can back up with scriptures! So lets quit wasting everyones time and respond to the thread instead of my personal walk! You resort to that along with others on this board when you can not back up your own unbelief concerning it!

First, you can't back up your beliefs with Scripture as so many here have told you. You are wrong. Others have told you and showed you from Scripture where you are wrong. You just don't want to listen.
Second, you need to listen to the history, such as I have posted for you.
Third, my time is not wasted by posting truth.
It is not a personal walk I am attacking; it is a belief system tainted by the occult from which it originates. It something that originated in 1905 and was embraced by a sect of Christendom at that time, but was never a part of Christendom before that time. For 1900 years it was unknown to Christianity but only among paganism. Why would any serious thinking Christian accept it now?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Excerpts from an article on glossolalia:

Linguistics

In 1972 William J. Samarin, a linguist from the University of Toronto, published a thorough assessment of Pentecostal glossolalia which became a classic work on its linguistic characteristics.[6] His assessment was based on a large sample of glossolalia recorded in public and private Christian meetings in Italy, The Netherlands, Jamaica, Canada and the USA over the course of five years; his wide range included the Puerto Ricans of the Bronx, the Snake Handlers of the Appalachians and Russian Molokan in Los Angeles.

Samarin found that glossolalic speech does resemble human language in some respects. The speaker uses accent, rhythm, intonation and pauses to break up the speech into distinct units. Each unit is itself made up of syllables, the syllables being formed from consonants and vowels taken from a language known to the speaker:

It is verbal behaviour that consists of using a certain number of consonants and vowels[...]in a limited number of syllables that in turn are organized into larger units that are taken apart and rearranged pseudogrammatically[...]with variations in pitch, volume, speed and intensity.[7]

[Glossolalia] consists of strings of syllables, made up of sounds taken from all those that the speaker knows, put together more or less haphazardly but emerging nevertheless as word-like and sentence-like units because of realistic, language-like rhythm and melody.[8]

That the sounds are taken from the set of sounds already known to the speaker is confirmed by others. Felicitas Goodman, a psychological anthropologist and linguist, also found that the speech of glossolalists reflected the patterns of speech of the speaker's native language.[9]

Samarin found that the resemblance to human language was merely on the surface and so concluded that glossolalia is "only a facade of language".[10] He reached this conclusion because the syllable string did not form words, the stream of speech was not internally organized, and – most importantly of all – there was no systematic relationship between units of speech and concepts. Humans use language to communicate but glossolalia does not. Therefore he concluded that glossolalia is not "a specimen of human language because it is neither internally organized nor systematically related to the world man perceives".[10] On the basis of his linguistic analysis, Samarin defined Pentecostal glossolalia as "meaningless but phonologically structured human utterance, believed by the speaker to be a real language but bearing no systematic resemblance to any natural language, living or dead".[11]

Practitioners of glossolalia may disagree with linguistic researchers and claim that they are speaking human languages (xenoglossia). Felicitas Goodman studied a number of Pentecostal communities in the United States, the Caribbean and Mexico; these included English, Spanish and Mayan speaking groups. She compared what she found with recordings of non-Christian rituals from Africa, Borneo, Indonesia and Japan. She took into account both the segmental structure (such as sounds, syllables, phrases) and the supra-segmental elements (rhythm, accent, intonation), and concluded that there was no distinction between what was practised by the Pentecostal Protestants and the followers of other religions.[12]

Further excerpt:

The admittedly fraudulent preacher Marjoe Gortner described in a 1977 interview how people learn glossolalia in a highly emotional religious setting.

"Tongues is something you learn," he emphasized. "It is a releasing that you teach yourself. You are told by your peers, the church, and the Bible -- if you accept it literally -- that the Holy Ghost speaks in another tongue; you become convinced that it is the ultimate expression of the spirit flowing through you. The first time maybe you'll just go dut-dut-dut-dut, and that's about all that will get out. Then you'll hear other people and next night you may go dut-dut-dut-UM-dut-DEET-dut-dut, and it gets a little better. The next thing you know, it's ela-hando-satelay-eek-condele-mosandrey-aseya ... and it's a new language you've got down."[72]

That glossolalia can be learned is also seen in the traces left behind by teachers. An investigation by the Lutheran Medical Center in Brooklyn showed that the influence of a particular leader can shape a group's glossolalia: where certain prominent glossolalists had visited, whole groups of glossolalists would speak in his style of speech.[73]

 

[awaken]

I am not in the business of taking away a person's walk with God.
I have total belief and faith in the Word of God.
You can live out your Christian life in the way you know how, but even according to your own testimony you cannot:
1. perform miracles.
2. do not have the gift of healing as in Acts 5:16,
3. do not have the Biblical gift of languages.

So, what do you have, but hypocrisy--saying you have something that you don't. You say you have the "manifestation," but you can't demonstrate it.
Isn't that living a lie??

Your judgment of my walk does not change the facts in my own life...not can you get off me personally and address the Word of God. I have posted several post that no one has addressed. I assume it is because I covered it scriptures and they can not be refuted!

What promises?
Miracles? Healings? Languages?
You say you have them but you can't demonstrate them. Pleeeeeeaaase!!!
Give me a break!!! Why are you telling me you have something you don't have. There is such a thing as evidence which you cannot provide. I believe the promises of God--those promises that God has promised to us.
But not every promise in the Bible is directed to us:
For example:
Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
--Is this your promise, directed to you?

Yes! I am blessed because I bless them!

Genesis 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
--Is this promise directed to you?

Judges 6:21 Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.
22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face.
--Will the Lord give you a sign just like this one awaken?

And so the sign gifts; the gifts of the Spirit are not for today either.
The Bible teaches it; History verifies it; Lack of current evidence is further proof.

Your examples are futher proof that you can not refute my post! You steer all threads to my personal walk and stay clear of the scripturess presented to you! I have dealt with that many times and have learned that about those that are blinded to what the scriptures are really teaaching. Futhermore...You want to claim the gifts are gone because I myself do not walk in the ones you posted. I have admitted several times that miracles are not done through me by the Holy Spirit! But I will not say it will not happen! Tongues and healings have! I have laid hands on several and they have recovered just as Mark says!

This is not a definition as some think. It is a description of faith. Learn the difference. To see your error just take a simple dictionary and look up the word "faith." Then you will understand how it fits with the definition I gave you: trust, confidence--in another person, in the word of another. Faith is not blind.

So you will take the dictionary's word for the ones you agree with but throw out the ones like "manifestation"...Well, It is plain in that scripture that faith is believing before you SEE it!

You also have foolishness if it is not based on facts. Blind faith is nothing but foolishness--the equivalent of blowing yourself up and thinking you will go to Paradise.

Again you give illustrations that steer away for the plain truth! My facts are based on what the NT says! I am again sincerly sorry that you are in unbelief and will not walk in what it says we can have! Your not doing a very good job of keeping this post on subject of the Bible an off peoples personal walks!

You are right. I may never see God heal thousands at one time, and every one of them without exception healed like Peter did in Acts 5:16. However, by your own testimony, neither will you.

So if I can show you one time that the apostles could not heal someone...will you drop this attempt to prove that the apostles could heal everyone without exception!

I may never experience the gift of tongues. I wish God had given me that gift since I am a missionary to a nation that speaks many languages. But he didn't give me the gift of languages, and to my knowledge hasn't given it to anyone for the last 1900 years. I am not saying it is impossible, but it is not something that would be very common, as it was in the first century. It is not a common gift of the Spirit. In fact it is unheard of.

Maybe if you would quit seeking tongues to do something other than what He said in scriptures it was for. What you are saying is that God gave tongues to evangalize. Isn't that what missionaries do?

I may never experience the gift of miracles, and neither will you. According to your testimony you haven't. Of course not. That gift has ceased. You can't point to anyone that has that gift.

I hope neither of us have to have a miracles done in our lives! But on the same hand if I need one I know my God can still preform them anyway he choses!

This has nothing to do with my belief/faith or yours.
It has to do with God's will and purposes for this day and age.

Oh, but the whole Bible has to do with faith! We can not please God without faith! Man's misinterpretation and teachings is why we have stopped believing what God said is to be here until we see him face to face or known AS WE ARE KNOWN.

Neither are gifts of the Spirit.j

But they are scriptural and they were given for the church! The last time I looked he has not come for his bride that he gave the gifts too!

God spoke to Moses through a burning bush.
Moses divided the Red Sea via the power of God.
It is in the Word...I believe it. But I don't live out those miracles in my life.
They aren't for me.
Neither are the sign gifts are for you. And you can't perform them, can you?

Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that I can divide the seas. Yes, He spoke to Moses through a burning bush...but does it promise he will do that for us? NO! But He did tell us that we will receive the promise of God that was poured out on the Day of Pentecost! It was promised to all that the Lord our God shall call! So you can not take away what my Father in heaven promised me and I received by faith!!!!!

Learn what you are doing then; don't be ignorant of these things.
A wise man once said:
"One thing we never learn from history is that we never learn from history."

My history book is the Bible! You need to study your history books a little deeper concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! I can give you examples throughout history that claims they were present! But I think the Bible is clear without men's history books! I am sorry you have to deviate from the Word to find proof for your theory!

First, you can't back up your beliefs with Scripture as so many here have told you. You are wrong. Others have told you and showed you from Scripture where you are wrong. You just don't want to listen.
Second, you need to listen to the history, such as I have posted for you.
Third, my time is not wasted by posting truth.

So I am to throw the last 10 years of my walk with Jesus away because people on this board disagree with the plain truth in scriptures! NO WAY! No one has shown me in the Word of God that they have ceased! They did share their interpretation of scriptures which contradict other scriptures! The way I believe and live out does not contradict scriptures!

It is not a personal walk I am attacking; it is a belief system tainted by the occult from which it originates. It something that originated in 1905 and was embraced by a sect of Christendom at that time, but was never a part of Christendom before that time. For 1900 years it was unknown to Christianity but only among paganism. Why would any serious thinking Christian accept it now?

I am not asking someone to accept a movement! I am sharing the Word of God! YOu are the one that brings that up to lead people away from studing what the scriptures say and focusing on religions and movements!

 

[awaken]

Excerpts from an article on glossolalia:

Linguistics

In 1972 William J. Samarin, a linguist from the University of Toronto, published a thorough assessment of Pentecostal glossolalia which became a classic work on its linguistic characteristics.[6] His assessment was based on a large sample of glossolalia recorded in public and private Christian meetings in Italy, The Netherlands, Jamaica, Canada and the USA over the course of five years; his wide range included the Puerto Ricans of the Bronx, the Snake Handlers of the Appalachians and Russian Molokan in Los Angeles.

Samarin found that glossolalic speech does resemble human language in some respects. The speaker uses accent, rhythm, intonation and pauses to break up the speech into distinct units. Each unit is itself made up of syllables, the syllables being formed from consonants and vowels taken from a language known to the speaker:

It is verbal behaviour that consists of using a certain number of consonants and vowels[...]in a limited number of syllables that in turn are organized into larger units that are taken apart and rearranged pseudogrammatically[...]with variations in pitch, volume, speed and intensity.[7]

[Glossolalia] consists of strings of syllables, made up of sounds taken from all those that the speaker knows, put together more or less haphazardly but emerging nevertheless as word-like and sentence-like units because of realistic, language-like rhythm and melody.[8]

That the sounds are taken from the set of sounds already known to the speaker is confirmed by others. Felicitas Goodman, a psychological anthropologist and linguist, also found that the speech of glossolalists reflected the patterns of speech of the speaker's native language.[9]

Samarin found that the resemblance to human language was merely on the surface and so concluded that glossolalia is "only a facade of language".[10] He reached this conclusion because the syllable string did not form words, the stream of speech was not internally organized, and – most importantly of all – there was no systematic relationship between units of speech and concepts. Humans use language to communicate but glossolalia does not. Therefore he concluded that glossolalia is not "a specimen of human language because it is neither internally organized nor systematically related to the world man perceives".[10] On the basis of his linguistic analysis, Samarin defined Pentecostal glossolalia as "meaningless but phonologically structured human utterance, believed by the speaker to be a real language but bearing no systematic resemblance to any natural language, living or dead".[11]

Practitioners of glossolalia may disagree with linguistic researchers and claim that they are speaking human languages (xenoglossia). Felicitas Goodman studied a number of Pentecostal communities in the United States, the Caribbean and Mexico; these included English, Spanish and Mayan speaking groups. She compared what she found with recordings of non-Christian rituals from Africa, Borneo, Indonesia and Japan. She took into account both the segmental structure (such as sounds, syllables, phrases) and the supra-segmental elements (rhythm, accent, intonation), and concluded that there was no distinction between what was practised by the Pentecostal Protestants and the followers of other religions.[12]

Further excerpt:

The admittedly fraudulent preacher Marjoe Gortner described in a 1977 interview how people learn glossolalia in a highly emotional religious setting.

"Tongues is something you learn," he emphasized. "It is a releasing that you teach yourself. You are told by your peers, the church, and the Bible -- if you accept it literally -- that the Holy Ghost speaks in another tongue; you become convinced that it is the ultimate expression of the spirit flowing through you. The first time maybe you'll just go dut-dut-dut-dut, and that's about all that will get out. Then you'll hear other people and next night you may go dut-dut-dut-UM-dut-DEET-dut-dut, and it gets a little better. The next thing you know, it's ela-hando-satelay-eek-condele-mosandrey-aseya ... and it's a new language you've got down."[72]

That glossolalia can be learned is also seen in the traces left behind by teachers. An investigation by the Lutheran Medical Center in Brooklyn showed that the influence of a particular leader can shape a group's glossolalia: where certain prominent glossolalists had visited, whole groups of glossolalists would speak in his style of speech.[73]

I could also share a test done by so called specialist proving otherwise! But I would rather take what the word of God says about them!
NNE taught me how to speak in tongue! No one can if it is biblical tongues! It is the Holy Spirit that gives the utterance! It is the Holy Spirit that gives the interpretation!
Funny how your men above did not bring out one scripture! I believe the Word of God over any man's conclusion!

 

[awaken]

I have tried to offer plenty of evidence that after salvation there is a voluntary second experience of the Holy Spirit which is for empowering a Christian and which has the different outward evidence. We honor God when we prayerfully seek His truth with an unbiased, teachable spirit, and my hope and prayer is that what I presented has given you some food for thought and some Scriptures for prayerful consideration. Whatever you believe, if you have trusted in Jesus alone as your Savior then you are my brother or sister in Christ, and I look forward to meeting you when we all get Home!