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Featured Have Any Spiritual Gifts Ever "Died Out"?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by awaken, Apr 11, 2013.

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  1. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    My problem with that is that others than the apostles manifested those gifts!
    If we have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit...we have the same Holy Spirit they did! That same Spirit can manifest through us just as He did them..at His will!
     
    #41 awaken, Apr 12, 2013
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
    4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to his own will?
    --Signs, wonders, miracles and the gifts of the Holy Spirit were all signs given to the apostles specifically to authenticate them as apostles and their message as well.
    They have died and so have the gifts with them. This, by the way, is found in the Bible. The Book of Hebrews is found right before James if you need help finding it. Chapter two follows chapter one.

    The Second Epistle of Corinthians follows the First Epistle to the Corinthians.
    2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were done among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
    --Paul calls signs and wonders and mighty deeds (in reference to the sign gifts of the Spirit) as "the signs of an apostle. It is in your Bible. You can check it for yourself.

    These gifts ceased when the Apostles died. It is that simple.
     
    #42 DHK, Apr 12, 2013
  3. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    So where are the cloven tongues of fire?
     
    #43 Alcott, Apr 12, 2013
  4. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    I do not recall the cloven tongues of fire after Acts 2, do you? Acts 8,10, 19 all those examples do not describe tongues of fire...So do we throw those out the window??
     
    #44 awaken, Apr 12, 2013
  5. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    I have never denied the apostles had signs and wonders done among them! So what does that prove??? Others had signs and wonders done among them too! THat does not prove they have died out!
     
    #45 awaken, Apr 12, 2013
  6. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Paul's final illustration in the 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 passage which I have examined puts the whole issue to rest:

    "Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." (1 Corinthians 13:12)

    This does not describe the completion of the New Testament, because the New Testament was completed almost two thousand years ago and yet we still do not "know fully, even as [we are] fully known." Having a complete New Testament has not caused us to have a full, complete knowledge of God nor has it caused us to individually become "fully known" to one another.

    Scholars say that Paul was martyred in 64 or 68 A.D., but there are several books of the New Testament which scholars believe were written after Paul died: Hebrews in 68 or 69 A.D., Jude somewhere between 67 A.D. and 80 A.D., the Gospel of John somewhere between 85 A.D. and 95 A.D., and Revelation, which many scholars agree was written in 95 or 96 A.D. In addition, the first formal list of New Testament books was not compiled until roughly 75 years after Paul's death (The History of Christianity, Dr. Tim Dowley, p.106), and the New Testament was not actually completed in its final form for another 250 years or so after that (The History of Christianity, Dr. Tim Dowley, p.205). [This one is for you DHK..since you like something other than scripture to interpret scripture]

    Paul said, "when perfection comes...then I shall know fully" (1 Corinthians 13:12). Some people believe that "perfection" refers to the completion of the New Testament, but Paul did not live to see the completion of the New Testament. Paul's use of the word "perfection" cannot be referring to the completed New Testament because that would contradict his statement that he himself would "know fully" when perfection comes.

    To summarize, all of the evidence indicates that the "perfection" which Paul described is our transformation from mortal, corruptible bodies to perfect, immortal, incorruptible bodies. There is no suggestion in any of these verses, nor anywhere else in Scripture, that the completed New Testament is the "perfection" which Paul spoke of.

    Paul said that certain spiritual gifts will only cease when perfection comes, meaning that we will no longer need these gifts after we are raptured and we receive our perfect, glorified bodies. Since the Rapture has not yet happened, all of the gifts of the Spirit are still functioning in the body of Christ, including tongues. This means that God still wants us to be empowered by the Holy Spirit for our own personal ministries just as Jesus and the apostles and the early Christians were. There are no other passages anywhere in the New Testament which tell us that any gifts of the Spirit will ever "die out."
     
    #46 awaken, Apr 12, 2013
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    List those in the Bible that were able to do: signs, wonders, miracles, etc. other than the Apostles.
     
    #47 DHK, Apr 12, 2013
  8. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Will you write them down this time....I do not know how many times I have posted this! But you always find a way to make an excuse why they can and we can not...

    Stephen in Acts 6
    Philip in Acts 8
     
    #48 awaken, Apr 12, 2013
  9. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Sometimes people use Ephesians 2:19-21 to argue that certain gifts of the Spirit were "foundational":

    "Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord." (Ephesians 2:19-21)


    The above line of argument misses Paul's point and goes beyond what the above passage actually says. Paul's point was simply that we are members of God's "building," and that the apostles (and the prophets) laid the foundation for this "building." Notice that Paul used the same imagery in 1 Corinthians 3:9-11, where he specifically said that the foundation has nothing to do with his gifts as an apostle, but instead the foundation is Jesus Christ:

    "For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 3:9-11)

    Jesus is the true foundation, so if we use the argument which some people use then we must conclude that Jesus and His gifts (salvation, eternal life, the Holy Spirit, forgiveness of sins, redemption, etc.) were purely "foundational" and therefore ended when the New Testament was completed. Obviously this is the wrong conclusion to make. The argument that the apostles' spiritual gifts were purely foundational (and therefore temporary) is not Scriptural.
     
    #49 awaken, Apr 12, 2013
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Philip and Stephen were appointed or chosen by the church at Jerusalem to specifically help the Apostles. In a way they were associates of the Apostles.
    Philip became an evangelist, and then after his witness to the Ethiopian Eunuch the Bible says:
    Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

    As for Stephen, he was the first Christian Martyr.
    Acts 6:10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.
    --It was his wisdom that they could not withstand.
     
    #50 DHK, Apr 12, 2013
  11. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Yes or No: Does this show future believers do not have the experience of the Holy Spirit the same was as the apostles?
     
    #51 Alcott, Apr 12, 2013
  12. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    If I am understanding your question...so I will not be called a liar again..
    I would say "no"...
    The Holy Spirit baptism was not just for the apostles!
     
    #52 awaken, Apr 12, 2013
  13. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    This does not surprise me! I will only answer this with scripture!
    Acts 8:5-6 "Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the MIRACLES which he did."

    Acts 6:8 "And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people."

    THe did miracles! They were not apostles! Period!
     
    #53 awaken, Apr 12, 2013
  14. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Let me explain futher...about the Gifts of the Spirit "Confirmatory" or not?

    Some people believe that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit were given to the apostles in order to confirm their apostolic ministry, or that the apostles were able to do miracles because this confirmed the apostles' authority for writing inspired Scripture. This is based on passages such as the following:

    "Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it." (Mark 16:20)

    "So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders." (Acts 14:3)

    "how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." (Hebrews 2:3-4)

    One reason that this argument is erroneous is because few of the apostles wrote any of the books of the New Testament, and many of the books were written by people who were not apostles.

    Another obvious flaw in this argument is that signs and miracles and spiritual gifts were not limited to the apostles and to add to mypost above...

    ""During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (Acts 11:27-28)

    "Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied." (Acts 21:8-9)

    Some people believe that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit were given to the apostles in order to confirm their authority, yet all of these other people (above) had miraculous gifts as well. And Paul specifically pointed out that all of the gifts of the Spirit were present in the church at Corinth (1 Corinthians 1:7).

    Not only did these people (who were not apostles) prophesy and do amazing signs and wonders through the Holy Spirit, but at Pentecost the apostle Peter said that according to God's Word all Christians have the opportunity to do similar things:

    "Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: ... "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."" (Acts 2:14-18)

    God specifically said that He will pour out His Spirit on all types of people, and notice that He did not put any time limit on this. God did not say "I will pour out my Spirit for 60 or 70 years until the last apostle has died." Instead, God said that He will pour out His Spirit on people regardless of gender, age, social position, or time period.
     
    #54 awaken, Apr 12, 2013
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    This is what I thought: Philip and Stephen are the only two that you could think of--two specially chosen servants of God whom the church laid hands on to serve the church in a special capacity. Then you take a leap of faith that everyone should be able to be a Stephen; everyone should be able to be a Philip.
    Where do you get that from. Do you pray that the Lord would send you an Ethiopian Eunuch as well?
     
    #55 DHK, Apr 12, 2013
  16. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Maybe you would like to read my post above!
     
    #56 awaken, Apr 12, 2013
  17. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Not only was there no time limit placed on the gifts of the Spirit (except that when we are transformed at the Rapture then we will no longer need certain gifts), but neither Jesus nor the apostles ever took back, canceled, or in any way softened any of the things that they said about spiritual gifts. Take a close look at what they said:

    "But eagerly desire the greater gifts." (1 Corinthians 12:31)

    "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy." (1 Corinthians 14:1)

    "I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy." (1 Corinthians 14:5)

    "Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church." (1 Corinthians 14:12)

    "Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues." (1 Corinthians 14:39)

    "Do not quench the Spirit." (1 Thessalonians 5:19, New King James Version)

    "do not treat prophecies with contempt." (1 Thessalonians 5:20)

    Not a single one of these statements was ever taken back or canceled! Now notice Jesus' final words in the Gospel of Mark:

    "And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." (Mark 16:17-18)

    Just before Jesus left the earth He said that "those who believe" will cast out demons, speak in tongues, see miraculous healings through the laying-on of hands, and so on. Neither Jesus nor the writers of Scripture ever canceled this promise, so this promise is still in effect!
     
    #57 awaken, Apr 12, 2013
  18. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    The Bible says that in the first century, the Lord confirmed His Word by miraculous signs and wonders and gifts of the Spirit (see Mark 16:20, Acts 14:3, and Hebrews 2:3-4). The exciting reality is that the Lord will still confirm the preaching of His Word to this day with miraculous signs and wonders and healings! So why don't we see more miracles?
     
    #58 awaken, Apr 12, 2013
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Gifts shall cease. 1Cor.13:8ff.
    They were signs for the apostles, and thus ceased when the apostles died (2Cor.12:12; Heb.3:3,4).
    They were a sign for first century Jews (1Cor.14:21). Judgment came in 70 A.D. Tongues are therefore no longer needed.
    They were revelatory gifts and ceased when the canon of Scripture was completed at the end of the first century.
    There is no purpose for any of these miraculous gifts to be operative today.
    When the purpose of the sign is finished, then the sign is removed. The signs have been removed. The apostles are dead; the canon of Scripture complete; the Jewish nation has been dispersed; the signs have ceased.
    But I show you a more excellent way--love--which is better than all the gifts put together.
    Be sure to put things in their proper context.
    A rebuke telling them that prophecy was that which they needed to listen to and not tongues. That is the context here.
    Spoken in satire. And at the same time he is advising them that prophesy is far more important because people can understand it, but they can't understand foreign languages.
    Tongues don't build up the church, but prophecy did. Context.
    Context. Gifts have now ceased. Do not forbid speaking in tongues in the Corinthian church of the first century. Nothing about the 21st century here. Prophesy is still held as more important than tongues even in this context.
    Meaning: "Thou shalt not speak gibberish."
    If a prophet fail in just one prophesy you shall take him outside the camp and stone him, for he is a false prophet. The prophets of the NT never failed in their prophecies. The Charismatics are less than 10% accurate. They should be stoned.
    Where is you sack of rattle snakes and cobras?
    Are you drinking your Draino now?
    You just want part of that verse not the whole, right?

    The signs accompanied the apostles of the first century, and then ceased.
     
    #59 DHK, Apr 12, 2013
  20. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    And as he showed them a better way...he did not explain away the gifts. He showed them how WITH LOVE to manifest them!

    You are sooo wrong on that one! He said "forbid not speaking in tongues"...see how your doctrines contradict other scriptures!
    Where does it say listen in that context? That one little word "listen" changed the whole meaning to fit your theory! You do not find that in scipture! Just the opposite! He said in vs. 4 he said he would rather that YE (you) prophesy! Talking about taking things our of context??? YOU even add your own words!

    Tongue with interpretation edifies the body just as much as prophesy! He still says he would like everyone to speak in tongues...

    Context vs. 5 shows that tongues with interpretation does edify! He shows this by the word "except"...Context, context!!!

    Sorry, my Bible does not have DHK editing! "Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues." (1 Corinthians 14:39) Only the people that are in unbelief concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit believes this!

    Careful..you mignt be quenching the Spirit just by adding DHK' theology into scripture! But I do agree that we are not to speak gibberish! Biblical tongues is a different matter though!

    Don't know about all churches that believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit...but just Wednesday night we had a prophesy service...not one prophesy was wrong! Prophesy is on a personal level...It does not change or alter the Word of God! It always agrees! It always edifies! AGAIN! Yes, there are false out there!

    One more comment toward this remark...you can prophesy and not be a prophet! We all are to desire prophesy!

    You can not handle the truth presented without those verses! I guess you still have not searched out the snakes and poison in the Bible have you?

    Signs followed and confirmed HIS WORD! Yes, the apostles taught his word!
     
    #60 awaken, Apr 12, 2013
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