Featured Sketchy Doctrine

Winman,

See what i mean Winman...he has you begging for mercy like a tv wrestler in a choke hold...you need to focus Winman:thumbs:

 

I do not deny that Romans 5:19 says by Adam's disobedience MANY were made sinners. I simply disagree with you HOW many were made sinners.

You believe that because of Adam's sin, that all men were UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners. I was born a sinner because Adam sinned, not because I sinned.

The problem with this view is that you also have to conclude that many men will UNCONDITIONALLY be made righteous because of Jesus's obedience. You cannot apply different conditions to each half of these verses, because that is not the method Paul is using. He is applying the SAME conditions to each side of each verse.

And... if you interpret MANY to really mean ALL, then you must believe righteousness is unconditionally imputed to ALL men. You must necessarily believe in universalism.

In fact, it was primarily this very verse that led to Universalism in the 17th and 18th centuries, because thoughtful theologians tried to be consistent and apply the same conditions to each half of this verse.

The correct view is that both condemnation and righteousness are imputed CONDITIONALLY. When a person sins as Adam did, then judgment and condemnation come upon him. When a person trusts Jesus as Jesus trusted his Father, then righteousness comes upon him.

Now, why does it say MANY, and not ALL? Because all do not sin. We know from Romans 9:11 that Jacob and Esau had done no evil in their mother's womb. If they had died in this state (and millions of babies have died in this state), then they would not be sinners. And of course, not all men believe on Jesus, so only the MANY are imputed righteous.

Now, you can deny that some men are without sin, but Jesus himself spoke of these persons if you are willing to accept it.

Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

In Matthew 18, Jesus sat a little child in the midst of the disciples and said they must be converted and become as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. No unclean thing enters heaven, so obviously little children are not unclean, they are not sinners.

Jesus repeated this in Luke 15;

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Here Jesus spoke of 99 just persons which need no repentance. Of course, in your view no such persons could exist. Yet, Jesus himself spoke of these persons.

I easily account for these many persons (99 to 1) who need no repentance. Millions if not billions of children have died through the centuries.

Jesus also told us about the elder son who never sinned.

Luke 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

The elder son claimed never to have sinned. Did the father rebuke him? NO, the father confirmed what the elder son said, he called him SON, he said that he was EVER with him (no separation ever), and that ALL he had was his. He also said only the prodigal was DEAD and LOST, but now was ALIVE AGAIN.

Now, in your view, Jesus had to be speaking of IMAGINARY people that could not possibly exist. I refuse to believe this, Jesus did not speak nonsense. You simply do not understand it because it does not agree with Original Sin.

Now back to MADE sinners. Romans 5:19 is actually explained by Romans 5:12. Death (and condemnation) passed upon all men FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Now, if you rightly interpret Rom 5:12, that death passed upon all men because all men have conditionally personally sinned as Adam did, then you will interpret the rest of this passage correctly.

But if you impute Adam's sin (text NEVER says this) and death UNCONDITIONALLY to all men, but impute righteousness CONDITIONALLY to only those who believe on Jesus you will completely misinterpret this scripture.

Men are "made" sinners when they imitate Adam, just as many men are "made" communists when they imitate Karl Marx, or many men are "made" evolutionists when they imitate Charles Darwin. This is what Romans 5:12 tells us, death passed upon all men, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. This is speaking of personal sin.

 

Winman,

You need to step up and answer Van....or he will go on and on....Focus Winman and speak right to his concerns:wavey:

 

Did you read post 43? I quoted Van and then directly answered him. You may not agree with me, but I certainly answered him.

If a person believes that Rom 5:12 is teaching that Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, then Rom 5:19 would teach universalism. It was this very verse in fact that led to a surge of universalism back in the 17th and 18th centuries.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If you believe Rom 5:12 is saying Adam's sin was unconditionally imputed to all men, then MANY in verse 19 must mean ALL. But if so, then this verse would teach that righteousness is unconditionally imputed to ALL men because of Jesus's obedience. This is being CONSISTENT with the form of argument Paul is applying here, and why many believed (and many still believe) this passage teaches universalism. From Wiki on Universalism;

Once you get verse 12 wrong, you are completely off course with this passage. Death passed upon ALL MEN, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. This is saying all men have committed their own personal sin.

But it is not speaking of babies or little children, it is speaking of MEN.

 

Hey Van.
You said Winman did not answer you...but here is His answer!
What do you have to say to that Van??? stop with your shuck and jive!
give Winman something he can work with!!!

 

You guys can kid around with each other, but I know exactly what I am talking about. In Van's view, Romans 5:18-19 must teach Universalism. Theologians of the past realized that;

These scholars knew exactly what I am saying and perfectly agree with me.

Van simply does not get that his view teaches universalism, but it does.

No, only when you rightly interpret verse 12 to teach that death passed upon all men when they individually and personally sinned, will you correctly interpret the rest of this passage.

That applies to YOU as well Icon.

 

Oh, I know he is joking around, but your view is error and necessarily teaches Universalism. You do not get that, but it is absolutely true.

Problem around here is that there are a lot of folks who think they are a lot smarter than they actually are.

 

I will repeat one last time, if you believe Adam's sin unconditionally made all men sinners, then Romns 5:19 would teach universalism. I even showed an article written by Greek scholars who said this very thing.

It is not my fault that you cannot see your view leads to universalism, but it certainly does.

Only if you rightly interpret Romans 5:12 to teach that death passes on all men when they conditionally and personally sin can you escape universalism. I doubt you are able to comprehend that either.

Your problem is you always believe you are correct. You are not.

 

I am not going to keep arguing with you, YOU DON'T GET IT. The logical conclusion of your beliefs (which you just stated and I have quoted above) leads to Universalism whether you understand it or not. Obviously you don't have a clue.

If all men are made sinners by Adam's sin (which you say), then a proper interpretation of Rom 5:18-19 MUST say that ALL men will be made righteous by Jesus's obedience.

Did you even read the article I posted? Try reading it this time.

Now, this is exactly what I have been saying all along. I know you will not listen to me, so I quote scholars who know Greek.

The fact that you deny Universalism does not change the fact that if your view is correct, the logical conclusion of your view is Universalism.

In other words, you do not understand the implications of your own view.

Of course, you are as obstinate as they get, and I know you will NEVER admit your error. So, I am not going to argue with you again.