Sketchy Doctrine

[Van]

Winman pay no attention to Iconoclast. That the many were made sinners is your problem. The text does not support your rewrite, the many were made potential sinners. And what happens to sinners? Why they are separated from God. Thus to be made sinners means we were made separated from God. That is your problem, and no matter how many vague verses you cite and claim they say what they do not say, we come back to the fact that by nature, not nurture, we are children of wrath. We are condemned.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman,

Winman pay no attention to Iconoclast. That the many were made sinners is your problem. The text does not support your rewrite, the many were made potential sinners. And what happens to sinners? Why they are separated from God. Thus to be made sinners means we were made separated from God. That is your problem, and no matter how many vague verses you cite and claim they say what they do not say, we come back to the fact that by nature, not nurture, we are children of wrath. We are condemned.

See what i mean Winman...he has you begging for mercy like a tv wrestler in a choke hold...you need to focus Winman:thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Winman pay no attention to Iconoclast. That the many were made sinners is your problem. The text does not support your rewrite, the many were made potential sinners. And what happens to sinners? Why they are separated from God. Thus to be made sinners means we were made separated from God. That is your problem, and no matter how many vague verses you cite and claim they say what they do not say, we come back to the fact that by nature, not nurture, we are children of wrath. We are condemned.

I do not deny that Romans 5:19 says by Adam's disobedience MANY were made sinners. I simply disagree with you HOW many were made sinners.

You believe that because of Adam's sin, that all men were UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners. I was born a sinner because Adam sinned, not because I sinned.

The problem with this view is that you also have to conclude that many men will UNCONDITIONALLY be made righteous because of Jesus's obedience. You cannot apply different conditions to each half of these verses, because that is not the method Paul is using. He is applying the SAME conditions to each side of each verse.

And... if you interpret MANY to really mean ALL, then you must believe righteousness is unconditionally imputed to ALL men. You must necessarily believe in universalism.

In fact, it was primarily this very verse that led to Universalism in the 17th and 18th centuries, because thoughtful theologians tried to be consistent and apply the same conditions to each half of this verse.

The correct view is that both condemnation and righteousness are imputed CONDITIONALLY. When a person sins as Adam did, then judgment and condemnation come upon him. When a person trusts Jesus as Jesus trusted his Father, then righteousness comes upon him.

Now, why does it say MANY, and not ALL? Because all do not sin. We know from Romans 9:11 that Jacob and Esau had done no evil in their mother's womb. If they had died in this state (and millions of babies have died in this state), then they would not be sinners. And of course, not all men believe on Jesus, so only the MANY are imputed righteous.

Now, you can deny that some men are without sin, but Jesus himself spoke of these persons if you are willing to accept it.

Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

In Matthew 18, Jesus sat a little child in the midst of the disciples and said they must be converted and become as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. No unclean thing enters heaven, so obviously little children are not unclean, they are not sinners.

Jesus repeated this in Luke 15;

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Here Jesus spoke of 99 just persons which need no repentance. Of course, in your view no such persons could exist. Yet, Jesus himself spoke of these persons.

I easily account for these many persons (99 to 1) who need no repentance. Millions if not billions of children have died through the centuries.

Jesus also told us about the elder son who never sinned.

Luke 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

The elder son claimed never to have sinned. Did the father rebuke him? NO, the father confirmed what the elder son said, he called him SON, he said that he was EVER with him (no separation ever), and that ALL he had was his. He also said only the prodigal was DEAD and LOST, but now was ALIVE AGAIN.

Now, in your view, Jesus had to be speaking of IMAGINARY people that could not possibly exist. I refuse to believe this, Jesus did not speak nonsense. You simply do not understand it because it does not agree with Original Sin.

Now back to MADE sinners. Romans 5:19 is actually explained by Romans 5:12. Death (and condemnation) passed upon all men FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Now, if you rightly interpret Rom 5:12, that death passed upon all men because all men have conditionally personally sinned as Adam did, then you will interpret the rest of this passage correctly.

But if you impute Adam's sin (text NEVER says this) and death UNCONDITIONALLY to all men, but impute righteousness CONDITIONALLY to only those who believe on Jesus you will completely misinterpret this scripture.

Men are "made" sinners when they imitate Adam, just as many men are "made" communists when they imitate Karl Marx, or many men are "made" evolutionists when they imitate Charles Darwin. This is what Romans 5:12 tells us, death passed upon all men, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. This is speaking of personal sin.

 

[Van]

Folks, all these arguments have been addressed, some several times. More copy and paste and more evasion of the refutations.

1) The text says the many were made sinners, and says all men, not some men were condemned. Thus all men were made sinners.

2) No, the text does not teach many men will be made righteous unconditionally. The gift abounded to many. Two different groups. Those that receive the abundance of grace will reign. Two different situations. The many who are made sinners did not "receive" the curse.

3) Next, and this has been addressed many times, the many compares to the one, Adam and those made sinners, Christ and those who receive the gift. Two different groups. Winman's assertions are twaddle.

4) Next you claim babies are not conceived in iniquity, not by nature children of wrath, and not among the "all men" condemned. Twaddle.

5) Next, you again claim Adam's sin was imputed. This shows you do not respond to the refutations once again. The many were made sinners is what I claim. The fall was the consequence of Adam's sin, God's judgment condemned all men.

 

[Iconoclast]

Folks, all these arguments have been addressed, some several times. More copy and paste and more evasion of the refutations.

1) The text says the many were made sinners, and says all men, not some men were condemned. Thus all men were made sinners.

2) No, the text does not teach many men will be made righteous unconditionally. The gift abounded to many. Two different groups. Those that receive the abundance of grace will reign. Two different situations. The many who are made sinners did not "receive" the curse.

3) Next, and this has been addressed many times, the many compares to the one, Adam and those made sinners, Christ and those who receive the gift. Two different groups. Winman's assertions are twaddle.

4) Next you claim babies are not conceived in iniquity, not by nature children of wrath, and not among the "all men" condemned. Twaddle.

5) Next, you again claim Adam's sin was imputed. This shows you do not respond to the refutations once again. The many were made sinners is what I claim. The fall was the consequence of Adam's sin, God's judgment condemned all men.

Winman,

You need to step up and answer Van....or he will go on and on....Focus Winman and speak right to his concerns:wavey:

 

[Van]

Christians should strive not to be fractious. But some seem to have quenched the spirit of unity in the name of man-made doctrine.

 

[Van]

Did the Fall cause us to be conceived in a sinful condition, separated from God? My answer is yes. Had we sinned or done anything good or bad? My answer is no. Thus Adam's sin was not imputed to us. But the consequence of his sin, separation from God and corruption did result in our sinful condition at conception.

Were our sins and our sinful condition washed away by Christ's one sacrifice on the Cross? No. Only those that "receive" the reconciliation provided by Christ's one sacrifice on the cross have their sins washed away. God must credit our faith as righteousness, and then place us in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, in order to receive the washing of regeneration. God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth.

 

[Van]

Note that the application of the propitiation provided by Christ is assumed to automatically occur according to the sketchy doctrine, rather than received because of God accepting our faith in Christ during our lifetime. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. God tells us to be reconciled to God, i.e. to receive the reconciliation through faith, for we are saved by grace through faith, and not by unconditional election.

 

[Winman]

Winman,

You need to step up and answer Van....or he will go on and on....Focus Winman and speak right to his concerns:wavey:

Did you read post 43? I quoted Van and then directly answered him. You may not agree with me, but I certainly answered him.

If a person believes that Rom 5:12 is teaching that Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, then Rom 5:19 would teach universalism. It was this very verse in fact that led to a surge of universalism back in the 17th and 18th centuries.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If you believe Rom 5:12 is saying Adam's sin was unconditionally imputed to all men, then MANY in verse 19 must mean ALL. But if so, then this verse would teach that righteousness is unconditionally imputed to ALL men because of Jesus's obedience. This is being CONSISTENT with the form of argument Paul is applying here, and why many believed (and many still believe) this passage teaches universalism. From Wiki on Universalism;

Some Bible verses commonly cited in Christian Universalist theology are:
1 Corinthians 15:22[8]
"For as in Adam ALL die, so in Christ ALL will be made alive." (NIV; Emphasis Added)
"For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive." (ESV; Emphasis Added)
Romans 5:18-19 (The "one trespass" and the "one man's disobedience" refer to Adam's sin, while the "act of righteousness" and the "one man's obedience" refer to Jesus' voluntary death on the cross).
"Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." (NIV; Emphasis Added)
"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." (ESV; Emphasis added)

Once you get verse 12 wrong, you are completely off course with this passage. Death passed upon ALL MEN, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. This is saying all men have committed their own personal sin.

But it is not speaking of babies or little children, it is speaking of MEN.

 

[Iconoclast]

Did you read post 43? I quoted Van and then directly answered him. You may not agree with me, but I certainly answered him.

If a person believes that Rom 5:12 is teaching that Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, then Rom 5:19 would teach universalism. It was this very verse in fact that led to a surge of universalism back in the 17th and 18th centuries.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If you believe Rom 5:12 is saying Adam's sin was unconditionally imputed to all men, then MANY in verse 19 must mean ALL. But if so, then this verse would teach that righteousness is unconditionally imputed to ALL men because of Jesus's obedience. This is being CONSISTENT with the form of argument Paul is applying here, and why many believed (and many still believe) this passage teaches universalism. From Wiki on Universalism;




Once you get verse 12 wrong, you are completely off course with this passage. Death passed upon ALL MEN, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. This is saying all men have committed their own personal sin.

But it is not speaking of babies or little children, it is speaking of MEN.

Hey Van.
You said Winman did not answer you...but here is His answer!
What do you have to say to that Van??? stop with your shuck and jive!
give Winman something he can work with!!!

 

[Van]

Winman, you do realize Iconoclast is using you to derail this thread. Your assertions have all been refuted. But you keep denying what is obvious in scripture.

Returning to topic, the sketchy doctrine of Calvinism, Were our sins and our sinful condition washed away by Christ's one sacrifice on the Cross? No. Only those that "receive" the reconciliation provided by Christ's one sacrifice on the cross have their sins washed away. God must credit our faith as righteousness, and then place us in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, in order to receive the washing of regeneration. God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

 

[Winman]

Hey Van.
You said Winman did not answer you...but here is His answer!
What do you have to say to that Van??? stop with your shuck and jive!
give Winman something he can work with!!!

You guys can kid around with each other, but I know exactly what I am talking about. In Van's view, Romans 5:18-19 must teach Universalism. Theologians of the past realized that;

There is, we suggest, significant difficulty with the conclusion that Paul intends some statement regarding inherited sin (due to his use of πάντας ανθρώπους). If Paul's statement is to be taken at face value and interpreted to mean that Adam's sin and consequent guilt are applied to all men (with*out exception as would seem to be required for the idea of inherited sin to survive), then it seems necessary that Christ's act of righteousness must also be applied to this same group. In other words, since Paul is at pains to argue that the effect of Christ's act surpasses the effect of Adam's trespass (ει . . . πολλω μάλλον; w. 15,17), and in light of the exact parallel in language between 18a and 18b17 (esp. εις πάντας ανθρώπους), it seems that an insis*tence on inherited sin requires a conclusion of absolute Universalism. If sin
is universally applied (every human being without exception), then so must salvation be universally applied.18 Our argument and suggested reading of this passage hinges on the wording of vv. 18-19. If εις πάντας ανθρώπους in 5:18a means "all men without exception," then how can we make εις πάντας ανθρώπουςdenote something
different in the very next clause? If there were solid contextual clues for this change in designation, it would not be problematic. But such contextual clues
are lacking. It seems rather that Paul intends the force of εις πάντας ανθρώπους to be the same in each clause (as well as in 5:12).19 The plain read*ing of this text seems inescapable, whomever Paul sees as affected by Adam's sin is also affected by Christ's act of righteousness. The group affected by Adam's sin is brought under judgment and death. The group affected by Christ's righteousness is pardoned and receives life. Thus if Paul's point is that every single human being is condemned by Adam's sin, then it follows that every single human being is pardoned and receives life. Such is the plain reading of the text, if we see inherited sin in this picture. This same conclusion is supported by Paul's use of ώς . . . ούτως in 5:18. The use of ώς . . . ούτως in Paul frequently denotes similarity of means or manner.20 Thus in Rom 5:18 Paul's comparison of the results of ενός παραπτώματος and ένος δικαιώματος would require that they be applied through similar means or manner. If the result of ένος παραπτώματος is applied to εις πάντας ανθρώπους without any conscious participation, then so must the results of ένος δικαιώματος (that is, without conscious participation). If, on the other hand, the application of the results of ένος δικαιώματος is based on some form of active participation (the exercise of faith), then it would seem the application of guilt must also be based on active participation.

These scholars knew exactly what I am saying and perfectly agree with me.

Van simply does not get that his view teaches universalism, but it does.

No, only when you rightly interpret verse 12 to teach that death passed upon all men when they individually and personally sinned, will you correctly interpret the rest of this passage.

That applies to YOU as well Icon.

 

[Winman]

Winman, you do realize Iconoclast is using you to derail this thread. Your assertions have all been refuted. But you keep denying what is obvious in scripture.

Returning to topic, the sketchy doctrine of Calvinism, Were our sins and our sinful condition washed away by Christ's one sacrifice on the Cross? No. Only those that "receive" the reconciliation provided by Christ's one sacrifice on the cross have their sins washed away. God must credit our faith as righteousness, and then place us in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, in order to receive the washing of regeneration. God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Oh, I know he is joking around, but your view is error and necessarily teaches Universalism. You do not get that, but it is absolutely true.

Problem around here is that there are a lot of folks who think they are a lot smarter than they actually are.

 

[Van]

Winman, now you too make the charge of Universalism, completely ignoring what I said. So sad a person could think such falsehood furthers the ministry of Christ.

Your absurd and obviously false assertion that the many refers to the same group has been addressed.

Returning to topic, the sketchy doctrine of Calvinism: Were our sins and our sinful condition washed away by Christ's one sacrifice on the Cross? No. Only those that "receive" the reconciliation provided by Christ's one sacrifice on the cross have their sins washed away. God must credit our faith as righteousness, and then place us in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, in order to receive the washing of regeneration. God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

 

[Winman]

Winman, now you too make the charge of Universalism, completely ignoring what I said. So sad a person could think such falsehood furthers the ministry of Christ.

Your absurd and obviously false assertion that the many refers to the same group has been addressed.

Returning to topic, the sketchy doctrine of Calvinism: Were our sins and our sinful condition washed away by Christ's one sacrifice on the Cross? No. Only those that "receive" the reconciliation provided by Christ's one sacrifice on the cross have their sins washed away. God must credit our faith as righteousness, and then place us in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, in order to receive the washing of regeneration. God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

I will repeat one last time, if you believe Adam's sin unconditionally made all men sinners, then Romns 5:19 would teach universalism. I even showed an article written by Greek scholars who said this very thing.

It is not my fault that you cannot see your view leads to universalism, but it certainly does.

Only if you rightly interpret Romans 5:12 to teach that death passes on all men when they conditionally and personally sin can you escape universalism. I doubt you are able to comprehend that either.

Your problem is you always believe you are correct. You are not.

 

[Van]

Please quote then address my rebuttal concerning universalism. Otherwise, your are simply stonewalling. Recall that the two groups are different, and those made righteous must "receive" the gift.

And now, just like many Calvinists before you, you claim to be a mind reader, and you read my mind and found it blind and arrogant. Twaddle.

Your view of Romans 5:12 is wrong. The many, meaning everyone except Christ, were made sinners. The transgression resulted in condemnation to all men.

1) Adam sinned

2) God caused Adam to spiritually die by separating Him from God.

3) This transgression resulted in the condemnation of all men.

4) The many, everyone except Christ, were made sinners, conceived in iniquity, and by nature children of wrath.

5) Thus all in Adam die at conception because they are conceived in a separated from God spiritual state.

6) Only when we are united with Christ are we made alive.

 

[Winman]

Please quote then address my rebuttal concerning universalism. Otherwise, your are simply stonewalling. Recall that the two groups are different, and those made righteous must "receive" the gift.

And now, just like many Calvinists before you, you claim to be a mind reader, and you read my mind and found it blind and arrogant. Twaddle.

Your view of Romans 5:12 is wrong. The many, meaning everyone except Christ, were made sinners. The transgression resulted in condemnation to all men.

1) Adam sinned

2) God caused Adam to spiritually die by separating Him from God.

3) This transgression resulted in the condemnation of all men.

4) The many, everyone except Christ, were made sinners, conceived in iniquity, and by nature children of wrath.

5) Thus all in Adam die at conception because they are conceived in a separated from God spiritual state.

6) Only when we are united with Christ are we made alive.

I am not going to keep arguing with you, YOU DON'T GET IT. The logical conclusion of your beliefs (which you just stated and I have quoted above) leads to Universalism whether you understand it or not. Obviously you don't have a clue.

If all men are made sinners by Adam's sin (which you say), then a proper interpretation of Rom 5:18-19 MUST say that ALL men will be made righteous by Jesus's obedience.

Did you even read the article I posted? Try reading it this time.

There is, we suggest, significant difficulty with the conclusion that Paul intends some statement regarding inherited sin (due to his use of πάντας ανθρώπους). If Paul's statement is to be taken at face value and interpreted to mean that Adam's sin and consequent guilt are applied to all men (with*out exception as would seem to be required for the idea of inherited sin to survive), then it seems necessary that Christ's act of righteousness must also be applied to this same group. In other words, since Paul is at pains to argue that the effect of Christ's act surpasses the effect of Adam's trespass (ει . . . πολλω μάλλον; w. 15,17), and in light of the exact parallel in language between 18a and 18b17 (esp. εις πάντας ανθρώπους), it seems that an insis*tence on inherited sin requires a conclusion of absolute Universalism. If sin
is universally applied (every human being without exception), then so must salvation be universally applied.18 Our argument and suggested reading of this passage hinges on the wording of vv. 18-19. If εις πάντας ανθρώπους in 5:18a means "all men without exception," then how can we make εις πάντας ανθρώπουςdenote something different in the very next clause? If there were solid contextual clues for this change in designation, it would not be problematic. But such contextual clues are lacking. It seems rather that Paul intends the force of εις πάντας ανθρώπους to be the same in each clause (as well as in 5:12).19 The plain read*ing of this text seems inescapable, whomever Paul sees as affected by Adam's sin is also affected by Christ's act of righteousness. The group affected by Adam's sin is brought under judgment and death. The group affected by Christ's righteousness is pardoned and receives life. Thus if Paul's point is that every single human being is condemned by Adam's sin, then it follows that every single human being is pardoned and receives life. Such is the plain reading of the text, if we see inherited sin in this picture. This same conclusion is supported by Paul's use of ώς . . . ούτως in 5:18. The use of ώς . . . ούτως in Paul frequently denotes similarity of means or manner.20 Thus in Rom 5:18 Paul's comparison of the results of ενός παραπτώματος and ένος δικαιώματος would require that they be applied through similar means or manner. If the result of ένος παραπτώματος is applied to εις πάντας ανθρώπους without any conscious participation, then so must the results of ένος δικαιώματος (that is, without conscious participation). If, on the other hand, the application of the results of ένος δικαιώματος is based on some form of active participation (the exercise of faith), then it would seem the application of guilt must also be based on active participation.

Now, this is exactly what I have been saying all along. I know you will not listen to me, so I quote scholars who know Greek.

The fact that you deny Universalism does not change the fact that if your view is correct, the logical conclusion of your view is Universalism.

In other words, you do not understand the implications of your own view.

Of course, you are as obstinate as they get, and I know you will NEVER admit your error. So, I am not going to argue with you again.

 

[Van]

What is the meaning of the last phrase of Romans 5:12. Winman asserts that death (separation from God) did not occur at conception but rather when a person sins upon reaching the age of accountability. Thus, "for that all sinned" refers to the first sin over the age of accountability of each and every person.

How else could the phrase be understood? For in Adam all sinned, meaning the result or consequence, i.e. condemnation, came to all those in Adam, i.e. mankind or all men.

Therefore, just as through one man, sin entered the world [mankind)
and death [separation] through sin [of Adam]
and so death [separation] spread [over time, generation by generation]
to all men for that all sinned [as a consequence of being in Adam.]

The key is to see that in the phrase "for that all sinned" the idea of "sinned" is not our action, but the consequence or result of Adam's sin.
We did not sin individually (at least at conception) but the consequence of Adam's sin, separation from God and corruption, falls upon us all at conception.

Therefore the correct biblical doctrine is as stated in the OP, "The original sinful condition in which we are [edited] conceived as well as our actual sins are all fully washed away...."

 

[Van]

Post #57 ignores my rebuttal that the many does not refer to the same group. Duh

 

[Van]

Bedrock Doctrine

The original sinful condition in which we are conceived as well as our actual sins are all fully washed away when we undergo the circumcision of Christ after being spiritually placed in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit on the basis of God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.