Featured Conditional Election

WD,

Here through the prophet EZK. god gives some additional commentary on how israel could be viewed before and after God chose them as nation...Let me know if this is helpful, i think it is self explanatory....if you walk through it!!!

Ezekiel 16

King James Version (KJV)

16 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

4 And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.

5 None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.

6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

7 I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.

8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.

9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.

10 I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.

11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.

12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.

13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.

14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God.

15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

16 And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.

17 Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,

 

I don't recall ever stating that text (which was not my "proof text") was in regards to salvation. Now would be the time to use your new term 'strawman' and for it to actually apply.

 

WD. 15 times God says.[see post 21]..I did this, I did that, I covered thee, I made covenant with thee, even though they were to be pitied...It was only God setting His love on them that made them any different at all. The same is true for all chrisitans.

 

"His purpose" is not a condition? For something to be truly unconditional, purpose of any kind must be thrown out the window.

 

I dont deny any of that, but the Bible is clear God requires faith, regardless of debated origin, for salvation.

 

WD,

If God's purpose which he purposes among the 3 persons of the Godhead can be described as based on a condition or not...frankly i do not know.I mean as in Isa 55..his thoughts and ways are far beyond me ....not even on my radar screen, apart from what is revealed.
That being said...there is no condition in man that draws or repels His choice.
I believe the scripture teaches that God having viewed all mankind as fallen and condemned, In Mercy purposed to save a multitude in the lamb slain.

 

I agreed with what you posted earlier ,but i have to go back to work now...I will attempt to weigh in on that post later..it will take more time...

Ezk 16 is such a very powerful image of How God saves his people...I think that is why it is shocking that some would turn from Him as they did,showing themselves to be outside of the true Israel.

 

The context of 1 Peter 5:5 is referencing the saved, not the lost.

You should have known this by now.

The attempt to use it to prove the error of 'unconditional election' is to misuse it and is not rightly handling the Word of truth.

- Blessings

 

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you :type:

 

You are not getting it. First, it wasn't my "proof text". I was expanding on what another poster wrote in regards to the comment God never choose based on condition. Second, I know the context of that passage and it neither intended to supports nor deny conditional election, although considering we are saved by grace, would support the former.

 

That too...

(btw, the anti-Cals will rush in and say 'That was for the disciples!!!' -- blah blah blah! Salvation has ALWAYS been by His choice AND unconditional, and this is yet another example of this.)

And we see that anti-cals misuse Scripture to 'prove' unconditional election, specifically in the recent misusage of 1 Peter 5:5. More of the same: not rightly handling the Word of truth.

The passage is no proof text for unconditional election. It is written to the elect in its context.

Some should have known this by now.

- Blessings

 

Nobody used 1 Peter out of context, that was your strawman, remember? At any rate its quite comical to see with the above context, we can just dismiss the context ("blah, blah, blah"). Thats being consistent.

 

Israel: A brand plucked from the fire.

Hmmmm. Wonder what that means?

It's not hard. It's called unconditional election.

 

Isaiah 1:9 If the LORD of Heaven's Armies had not spared a few of us, we would have been wiped out like Sodom, destroyed like Gomorrah.:type:

 

And here we go again. For the noncalvinist, God elects qualities, and those who possess those qualities are elect. Despite the clear, concise and straightforward Scripture to the contrary, they insist that Jacob was loved because he was lovely, and Esau was hated because of something he did.

For the Calvinist, and according to the Scriptures, God elects people, and while Jacob and Esau were equal, and before either had done any good or evil, God chose Jacob and rejected Esau.

The condition? His will.

God's will is never good enough for the noncalvinist.

 

I am so glad to see the concept of "strawman" applied correctly.

 

From which correspondence school are you learning rhetorical arts?

Stick with the accepted definition of the term. Conditional Election describes the belief God elects people on the basis of His foreknowledge of their righteous faith.

 

I learn from the best...you.

Or better yet, lets stick with the true meaning of unconditional which excludes even God's purposes. May as well scratch his will while you are at it and correctly defined as a condition.

 

No it doesn't. Unconditional election means there is no onus on the one elected.

You need to ask for a refund of your $29.95.

 

It contrasts works and shows that work is nothing other than work. Grace is grace, faith is faith, and work is work.

And as stated before, if faith is taken to be a work, then the Calvinistic interpretation of Eph 2:8 would read "By grace are ye saved through faith/works". Although that is an explicit contradiction in the text since the next verse says "not of works", if Calvinism is consistent in its usage of their interpretation of faith, that's exactly the implications this verse would have.