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Conditional Election

DrJamesAch

New Member
The only base for election is what Aaron posted.Even when God singled out Israel as a nation he basically said this:

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt


His will expressed in the covenant of redemption ...based solely on God's loyal love...His oath... His purpose was the only reason given,


Why did you stop at verse 8?

Deuteronomy 7:6-9 With verse 9 added:

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

And even when you look at the context of God choosing Israel, it was also because He was keeping a promise to their fathers. But why did God promise anything to the fathers in the first place? Abrahams blessings were CONDITIONED on him demonstrating his faith. James 2:21-24, Romans 4:3, Hebrews 11:8.

Furthermore, that fact that Israel was set aside as God's elect (Romans 11:25-26) BECAUSE OF disobedience and unbelief (Matt 23:39, Hebrews 3:18-19) shows that the covenant was conditioned upon obedience. Key word there-CONDITIONED.
 

DrJamesAch

New Member
The context of 1 Peter 5:5 is referencing the saved, not the lost.

You should have known this by now.

The attempt to use it to prove the error of 'unconditional election' is to misuse it and is not rightly handling the Word of truth.

- Blessings
So this is not an absolute axiom? If this only applies to believers does God then exalt the proud and give grace to the arrogant?

This speaking to believers is precisely why it would have relevance otherwise you are arguing that God would unconditionally elect and save someone who is in direct rebellion to God and arrogantly believes he can save himself. I get that your argument would have God granting this person repentance and faith, and this is exactly why such a notion is erroneous because it has God imposing faith WHILE IN A STATE OF REBELLION AND ARROGANCE. To hold that God imposes repentance and faith, and unconditionally elects in the midst of demonstrated rebellion, unrepentant heart and lack of humility towards God is no different than Universalism.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ach

It contrasts works and shows that work is nothing other than work. Grace is grace, faith is faith, and work is work.

It does not mention faith.....[so you did not use it correctly]

what it does mention is the election of grace....

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
 

DrJamesAch

New Member
Ach



It does not mention faith.....[so you did not use it correctly]

what it does mention is the election of grace....

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The whole post that you are quoting out of context was about the difference between faith and works. Just because Romans 11:6 doesn't mention faith is irrelevant. I was not using Romans 11:6 to prove that grace is faith, I was using Romans 11:6 to show that works are works since that was the context of my argument. Following that is a period. That period means it ends the thought of the first paragraph and begins another. After stating why I used Romans 11:6, I stopped, and then declared that grace is grace, faith is faith, and work is work.

Not only was it used correctly, but you still did not address the problem that it gives Calvinists if interpreted consistently with Calvinist thought on faith being a work.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ach

Why did you stop at verse 8?

We can look anywhere you want....i could post the whole book..but let's see.

Deuteronomy 7:6-9 With verse 9 added:

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

And even when you look at the context of God choosing Israel, it was also because He was keeping a promise to their fathers. But why did God promise anything to the fathers in the first place?

Abrahams blessings were CONDITIONED on him demonstrating his faith. James 2:21-24, Romans 4:3, Hebrews 11:8.

This of course is wrong,absolutely. It was not conditioned on anything in man.....The Mosaic Covenant had conditions to...the enjoyment of the blessings of the land...

However the Covenant with Abraham was not a conditional covenant at all.
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.


Furthermore, that fact that Israel was set aside as God's elect (Romans 11:25-26) BECAUSE OF disobedience and unbelief (Matt 23:39, Hebrews 3:18-19) shows that the covenant was conditioned upon obedience. Key word there-CONDITIONED.

Rather than Israel being "set aside'as God's elect....Jesus actually begins the new exodus...Mt 2;15...and all believers IN HIM.
You have no biblical understanding of election as it pertains to salvation, so your error continues here....
Unbelieving Israel was broken off in unbelief...The believing remnant of Israel .as well as saved gentiles form the Christian Israel.Mt21:43

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Several posters have offered you correction on this the other day and you do not welcome the truth. You try and wrongly explain it away as replacement theology. they explained why it is a fulfillment and expansion but you are unable to welcome it.:sleeping_2::sleeping_2:
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
So this is not an absolute axiom? If this only applies to believers does God then exalt the proud and give grace to the arrogant?

Yes. It's called rightly handling the Word of truth. To your foolish conclusion above? Hmmm. That's you, twisting things and doing so with the name of God in it.

This speaking to believers is precisely why it would have relevance otherwise you are arguing that God would unconditionally elect and save someone who is in direct rebellion to God and arrogantly believes he can save himself.

It has no relevance outside of context which is where you are attempting to take the Word so you can twist its real and true meaning.

No God is arguing that. He actually does it too. It's called unconditional election. You? You are arguing against it -- looks to me you're arguing God saves on the basis of your goodness to me, or on conditional election. You know, the actual election (some) non-calvies LOVE to speak of, that God chose based on merit -- funny aint it? Well, really it isn't its actually rather disturbing. In contrast hatred is spewed over Gods real, Biblical electing grace from the same party.

Back to the highlighted, OK? You mean those like Paul? That describes him excellently. You mean like Ephesians in describing all the lost '...like the rest?' You mean people like in the Sermon on the Mount who know their lost state in chapter 5:3ff? The ones to whom He worked an act of grace and changed them on no basis of merit? You know, like, those who are lost, hostile toward God, enemies in their mind, children of wrath, those in whom there is no good thing? You know those actual real sinners?

That's all He has to work with, pal. :thumbsup:

I certainly hoped you knew this being a 'dr' and all, but looking at your post I am in doubts even more about your understanding of Spiritual things.

Then you try to twist my giving sound doctrine, rightly handling the Word into something else? It is all you can do to combat truth presented -- twist it into error and something completely different, which is why I snipped off the baloney ending of your rant.

Unbelievable.

smh.
 
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DrJamesAch

New Member
Yes. It's called rightly handling the Word of truth. To your foolish conclusion above? Hmmm. That's you, twisting things and doing so with the name of God in it.



It has no relevance outside of context which is where you are attempting to take the Word so you can twist its real and true meaning.

No God is arguing that. He actually does it too. It's called unconditional election. You? You are arguing against it -- looks to me you're arguing God saves on the basis of your goodness to me, or on conditional election. You know, the actual election (some) non-calvies LOVE to speak of, that God chose based on merit -- funny aint it? Well, really it isn't its actually disturbing and sad. In contrast hatred is spewed over Gods real, Biblical electing grace from the same party.

Back to the highlighted, OK? You mean those like Paul? That describes him excellently. You mean like Ephesians in describing all the lost '...like the rest?' You mean people like in the Sermon on the Mount who know their lost state in chapter 5:3ff? The ones to whom He worked an act of grace and changed them on no basis of merit? You know, like, those who are lost, hostile toward God, enemies in their mind, children of wrath, those in whom there is no good thing? You know those actual real sinners?

That's all He has to work with, pal. :thumbsup:

I certainly hoped you knew this being a 'dr' and all, but looking at your post I am in doubts even more about your understanding of Spiritual things.

Then you try to twist my giving sound doctrine, rightly handling the Word into something else? It is all you can do to combat truth presented -- twist it into error and something completely different, which is why I snipped off the baloney ending of your rant.

Unbelievable.

smh.

If you boiled down all the rhetoric your post probably could have been written in about 2 sentences.

The point the other brother was making is that Calvinist say that God GIVES grace. You arguing that this text is written to Christians (what New Testament book ISN'T???) does not help your argument. If God GIVES grace, but that grace is GIVEN based upon a persons humility, then it is in fact CONDITIONAL. But I see, as most Calvinists, instead of actually dealing with the text, you go off on some tangent about how stupid someone is for believing what they believe and never actually deal with the verse.

Next, this is where the term straw man argument actually fits because you have consistently accused Non Calvinists of saying that we save ourselves and that we believe merit saves us. The only reason you conclude that is because you believe faith is a work. Now I can call you just as stupid for believing that because that is a fallacy that is not supported by scripture. If faith is a work, then Ephesians 2:8 would hold that we are saved through works.

And when you argue, you merely use circular reasoning and continue to resort back to your premise and then claim the other person is wrong because they disagree with your premise, and why is that wrong, because the premise simply must be right. You're wagging the dog (or DoG).

However, I can't speak for ALL of the Non Cals because there are many that are non Calvinists that I disagree on in other areas. I do not believe, nor have I ever held or stated that salvation is by works or merit. Not only can you not BE saved by merit, you can't STAY saved by merit. The entire salvation process is solely God's work. Me being a receiver does not rob God of His glory. That is a simple Biblical concept that Calvinists obviously just don't get.

Calvinism would have everyone believe that none of the early church leaders knew what salvation was since you can't find anything that looks or smells like Calvinism until at least 300 years after the church was started. Common sense tells me that when such notions were not found by disciples of John and Paul, were not elaborated on until Augustine, and all of the churches that succeeded from the early churches rejected Augustine, and such views were only made popular 1500 years later, that something is wrong with building ones theology on such an erroneous foundation.

According to Calvinism, nobody had the gospel until John Calvin resurrected Augustine's crap. Kind of the same as the Roman Catholic Church saying nobody had the gospel outside of the papacy. According to Calvinism, God used a murdering, baby sprinkling, prophecy illiterate heretic who committed all of his crimes AFTER his profession to produce the REAL gospel. And Calvinists swallow that hook, line, and sinker.
 

DrJamesAch

New Member
Van:

It's obvious you won't get a discussion if you write something that has more than one Bible verse. I think in the future when Non Calvinists write something about Calvinism, we should go slow, and deal with one verse at a time, because Calvinists can not multi-verse :)

For example, post just one thread on Ephesians 2:8, and make them deal with JUST THAT VERSE until they figure out that faith is not works, and that faith is not a gift.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
DrJamesAch, I think they know what Ephesians 2:8 actually says, salvation is the gift of God. But they would rather stonewall and post nonsense. 12 Strings said not all Calvinists misuse Ephesians 2:8-9, which is true. However, the gentlemen and ladies of the Calvinism persuasion who post on this forum do misuse it.

Did they demonstrate from scripture that Jacob and Esau were examples of unconditional election for salvation? Nope, because God choose the older to serve the younger. Thus a conditional election. Next, is this individual election for salvation? Nope. So they post this completely non-germane passage over and over to stonewall discussion.

1) Our individual election for salvation is conditional, we are chosen through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

2) Our individual election for salvation is conditional, we are chosen based on our love of God, James 2:5.

3) Our individual election for salvation is conditional, God choose those not well born, well educated, powerful to shame the wise, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30.

The case for our conditional election for salvation is obvious and overwhelming. Calvinism is simply based on shoddy bible study.

Did you see where one poster cited that Jesus said, I chose you, you did not choose me. When I used this verse to demonstrate election occurs during our lifetime, Iconoclast correctly pointed out that this verse is not talking about salvation. However when a Calvinist misuses the verse, Iconoclast remains silent. Thus to assume they do not know they are misusing passages does not stand up to scrutiny.
 
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Bob Alkire

New Member
Weak, weak, weak! Of course Jesus was talking about his Apostles, not Christians in general.

I too agree with you here on John 15:16.
Jesus chose them as friends and Apostles for a work He had for them and God the Father would answer their requests in order to accomplish that mission. Look at verse 19 it shows that He chose them.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I see yet another verse has been misused. Romans 11:5 says we were chosen by grace. Thus the idea is we were chosen for salvation by grace through faith. Thus we did not earn our salvation, i.e. a salvation not of works, but we were chosen through faith in the truth.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
No it doesn't. Unconditional election means there is no onus on the one elected.

You need to ask for a refund of your $29.95.
I'll return your program back to you so you can buy a good dictionary. You can try to put the emphasis on whatever word you want in 'unconditional election', but words still carry meanings.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ye shall not [need] to fight in this [battle]: set yourselves, stand ye [still], and see the salvation of the LORD with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the LORD [will be] with you. And Jehoshaphat bowed his head with [his] face to the ground: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem fell before the LORD, worshipping the LORD. And the Levites, of the children of the Kohathites, and of the children of the Korhites, stood up to praise the LORD God of Israel with a loud voice on high. And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper. And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed singers unto the LORD, and that should praise the beauty of holiness, as they went out before the army, and to say, Praise the LORD; for his mercy [endureth] for ever. And when they began to sing and to praise, the LORD set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten. For the children of Ammon and Moab stood up against the inhabitants of mount Seir, utterly to slay and destroy [them]: and when they had made an end of the inhabitants of Seir, every one helped to destroy another. And when Judah came toward the watch tower in the wilderness, they looked unto the multitude, and, behold, they [were] dead bodies fallen to the earth, and none escaped. 2 Chro 20:17-24


And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever. Ex 14:13


Do not do nor think anything, anything, Be still and see:

The evidence of things not seen. Faith.

There faith in the first was they saw the evidence the dead bodies, and therefore believed.

There faith in the second was they saw the evidence, the sea parted they went over on dry ground and the Egyptians were drowned.

In both their salvation was by grace through faith, the faithfulness of God.

The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen; Through the resurrected Son of God, God the Father gives his Spirit unconditionally setting apart unto salvation. Believers, those who have seen the faith through the Spirit.

For by grace are ye saved through the faith; Eph 2:8
that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through the faith. Last part Gal 3:14

Through the works of God. Unconditionally

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Romans 11:5 ----- Be still and see
 
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Jedi Knight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Weak, weak, weak! Of course Jesus was talking about his Apostles, not Christians in general.
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am". So was Jesus talking about the Apostles here too and not Christian's in general?
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am". So was Jesus talking about the Apostles here too and not Christian's in general?
The silence is deafening. :thumbs:
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
I'll return your program back to you so you can buy a good dictionary. You can try to put the emphasis on whatever word you want in 'unconditional election', but words still carry meanings.
:laugh:

You are so out of your league. :type:
 

DrJamesAch

New Member
Van vs The People of Geneva

Calvinists deny the validity of conditional election on these grounds:
(1) Because of the Calvinist’s acceptance of their doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability, they say man is incapable of the faith needed for God to use it as satisfying His conditional for election to salvation.
(2) Saving faith, faith satisfying God’s supposed conditional, is a gift God gives to the previously chosen person.
(3) Faith is a work and therefore cannot be a conditional for a salvation not of works.​

But let’s see if there is any merit whatsoever in any of these so-called problems with conditional election.

Total Spiritual Inability is demonstrated to be false doctrine by Matthew 13:20-22, where unregenerate men, in their natural fallen state, receive the gospel with joy. This demonstrates they have some spiritual ability, and therefore the doctrine of total spiritual inability is unbiblical. Further, what level of faith is required? Only a faith that God accepts and credits as righteousness, it need not have any merit of or by itself. Paul teaches that our faith in Christ provides our access to the grace in which we stand, Romans 5:2, clearly supporting that we are saved by grace through faith, and not of works.

Ephesians 2:8-9 does not say nor suggest that faith is a gift; the idea is that salvation is the gift. “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”. The pronoun “that” is not in the same gender as faith, so according to Greek grammar, “that” does not point to faith or grace, but to the resultant salvation.

And while it is true that placing ones faith in Christ is a “work” it is not “works” whereby salvation is earned by doing works over time. Jesus makes this distinction between works and the work of believing in Christ, in John 6:29. The meaning of the phrase, “work of God” is not something God does, but rather something God requires, because Jesus is answering the question, what “work” shall we do.

Bottom line, the so-called problems are based on misunderstanding selected verses, rather than anything of merit.

Now the Arminians assert that God’s election unto salvation occurred before the foundation of the world, based on Ephesians 1:4, with God foreseeing individuals who would trust in Christ. But this puts election (whether Calvinist’s unconditional view, or the Arminian conditional election view) before anyone has lived without mercy. And since 1 Peter 2:9-10 puts our election after we live without mercy, our individual election must occur during our physical lives. And this is precisely what James 2:5 says, God chooses the poor of the world, rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him.

Consider 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which says, we are chosen for salvation through…faith in the truth. The phrase “for salvation” describes the purpose of the choice, and the phrases “through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” describes “how” we were chosen so it is an adverbial clause modifying the verb chose and not the noun “salvation.”

Matthew 13:20-22 provides insight into this faith or trust in Christ; the conviction must be firm, heart-felt, and not rootless such that it is abandoned when difficulties arise. And the faith and devotion to Christ cannot be “half-hearted” with other worldly treasures, either possessions or relationships, sharing a place in our heart’s devotion. We are to love God and our Lord Jesus with all our heart, all our mind and all our understanding. Or as a modern phrase from Texas Hold-em would say, we must go “all in” with all our chips for Christ.
And through all of the hodge-podge of rabbits trails, derails, and chem-trails, the OP has yet to be refuted or even addressed squarely on the specific content addressed.

In the legal system, when the plaintiff makes a claim, the defendant normally has 20-30 days to file what's called an "Answer" or "Demur". Sometimes a defendant will give a RESPONSE but not an ANSWER, and the plaintiff then moves for default judgment.

The plaintiff having filed his original complaint, and the defendants having failed to give an answer either efficiently or timely, the plaintiff is therefore entitled to judgment by default.

JUDGMENT FOR THE PLAINTIFF.
 
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