Featured Two Interpretations of 2 Thess. 2:13-14

1. Jude says that we can witness eternal fire -- the punishment of eternal fire by looking at the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Instructive because no one over there is still burning.

2. What purpose? The Calvinist argument fails to answer that question starting with Lucifer's fall. "What purpose in allowing him to live on"?" And with the fall of Adam "What purpose in not sending Christ immediately". And the book of Job "What purpose in allow discussion in that meeting and the torment of Job"?? and the Cross "What purpose in allowing Romans to do any tormenting because no text says the wages of sin is Romans tormenting you" and the resurrection "What purpose in not having the second coming immediately after the resurrection of Christ".

Calvinism fails on all the "for what purpose" questions.

And the Arminian POV has the answer.

Right decisions in an Arminian system are motivated by compelling evidence - as we see in the book of Job.

Calvinism has no place for any of it.

In fact Calvinism appeals in all cases to the capricious arbitrary nature of its view of God to solve these puzzles.

in Christ,

Bob

 

God foreknowledge of his own saints is NOT based upon HIM seeing in the future us making the right decision to accept jesus, but the terminology implies God knowing us in a personal/intimate fashion, as he is the One that causes us to get saved, and knows us as He is the One who determined that we would be His own people!

there is NO reason from the bible to take God knowing us based upon Him foreseeing our faith, as he is the one that gives usthat faith, so directly determines it, and thus foreknows us based upon Him causing it!

 

The idea that God takes action in ignorance of what He knows through foreknowledge is not a requirement of the Arminian model. But Calvinism tries to imagine that very point.

 

Sure there is, and I have showed it many times, the story of Nathanael in John 1:

Jhn 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Note that Jesus saw Nathanael COMING to him. Coming is often synonymous with believing in scripture.

Note Jesus called Nathanael an "Israelite indeed", this is a true Jew whose circumcision is of the heart and spirit, (Rom 2:29) and whose praise is of God. Note that Jesus complimented Nathanael.

Note how Nathanael is shocked and asks how Jesus KNOWS him.

Jesus answers this specific question by telling Nathanael that before he was CALLED, when he was under the fig tree, I SAW THEE. This is foreknowledge.

At this point Nathanael believes on Jesus and calls him the "Son of God".

Jesus confirms that Nathanael now believes, but Jesus knew him BEFORE he believed.

This is foreknowledge of faith whether you will accept it or not. Of course, you will reject it, because it refutes Calvinism. But the honest reader can judge for himself.

 

Amazing that a person can be so close, yet so far away. Did your read the very next verse?

Acts 14:17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

God showed himself to these persons through nature (Rom 1:18-20). These men knew there was a God and were without excuse. Now, how God judged these persons, I do not know, but we can be sure that God is just.

In Calvinism, it is God's fault men are not saved. In your view a man is cursed with a sin nature the moment he is conceived, he did not choose this nature or to sin. Then God condemns men for being the very thing he determined they would be. Horrendous.

God himself said he had done everything he could, your argument is not with me, but God.

Yes, and even YOU.

The scriptures show God does beg men to be saved.

Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Problem is you never read past the 9th chapter.

Do you trust your wife? Do you trust your family? Do you have to conjure this faith up?

It would be nice if you were to show scripture that says men cannot resist God's grace, because I can show you several scriptures that says men can resist God's grace.

You just talk and talk and talk, never showing scripture to support your Deformed view, because there is no such scripture.

You DO believe God cursed men to have a sin nature that cannot believe, and then God punishes men for the very inability he cursed them to have. That is not a strawman, it is an accurate view of Calvinism.

God gives every man his own choice. You can choose Christ if you want to.

 

:laugh: That is pretty funny - I had not noticed that little "25,000 posts club". I myself did not realize that it had built up to that level over all this time.

My how time flies.

God is easily smart and powerful enough to be the all time master - robot builder. With not a single robot showing any flaw, suffering any pain, or ever violating His commands for it.

I do not question His ability in that regard.

But God sovereignly chose the "whosoever will" model instead of the "I sovereignly program robots to never sin" model.

Thus in John 1 "He came to His own but His own received Him not".

And John 3 "whosever believes on Him might not perish but have everlasting life".

Agreed - but in this case - His will and His pleasure is to sovereignly choose the "whosoever will model' -- even though He could just as easily have chosen master-robot-maker instead.

1 John 2 "Love not the world nor the things that are in the world"

James 4 "Friendship with the World is hostility toward God".

2Cor 4:4 satan is the "god of this world".

God loves the people in the World - but not the sin in the world.

God "is not partial" according to Romans 2 - thus arbitrary selection due to some supposed partiality on God's part is not part of His plan at all.

Yes he did - because as we see in Romans 2 those with no access to the Bible at all are among those who show the New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit - having the Law of God "written on the heart" - just as the New Covenant promises.

You ask how God expects His will to be accomplished which declares that He loves all - etc

----------------

"God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Pet 3.

"God so loved the WORLD that sent His only begotten son that WHOEVER believes on Him might not perish but have everlasting life" -- John 3.

God sent His son to be the "Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4.

God sent His Son to be the "atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2

----

This is done by God who provides for all mankind - enmity between the seed of the serpent and the see of the woman in Gen 3.

In John 1 - the Light that coming into the world enlightens every man.

In John 12:32 the God who "draws ALL" unto him.

in John 16 the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

To the point that in Romans 1 God says that even the "Barbarians" with no Bible at all are "without excuse" for the "invisible attributes of God are clearly seen ... in the things that have been made".

in Christ,

Bob

 

2 Thess 2

8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.


Notice that in 2Thess 2 the lost - those who perish are not said to perish because "God did not love them" - rather it is "because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved

God is the one who "is not willing that any should perish" - God is the one that "came to His own" --- but THEY are the ones that choose not to "receive" a love of the truth -- and "they are the ones" of whom it is said "but His OWN received Him not".

In Rev 3 He stands at the door and knocks - saying that "if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in".

Not "I select out a few doors and knock them down and wake up the person on the inside to suddenly realize I am in the house and we are friends. But the other doors I do not even care about".

(As you may be able to tell from that last example. I truly do enjoy these conversations - which probably explains to some degree that 25,000 number)

in Christ,

Bob

 

You are confusing victory with control. I know you think you believe that god will "win" in the end. But that idea has absolutely NOTHING to do with sovereignty. Sovereignty is not eventual victory. It is present control.

Either God is in control PRESENTLY or he is not.

You believe God will win in the end. What you don't believe is that God is truly Sovereign over everything right now.

No chess piece or anything else has ever moved apart from his power and purpose. That's REAL divine sovereignty. That's control. You don't believe God has that. You don't believe God is sovereign.

 

Excellent work!

 

Please do not attribute such blasphemy to Calvinists. We have never believed such trash. Why say such wicked things when no believer of any stripe believes that junk?

A few years ago I started a thread on this very subject. A number even doubted that anyone would dare to accuse God of showing a whimsical nature --that He is capricious. How can you say such things about the Lord of the Universe? You need to be honest in your description of what Calvinists actually believe from here on out. Deal?

 

That is the condition of all the lost not merely a select few! Notice that 2 Thes. 2:13 is in direct contrast with this group in vv. 9-12! Those in verses 9-12 were not "beloved" and "chosen" from the beginning only those in verse 13-14. However, your false intepretation would demand that the group in verses 9-12 were equally "beloved" and "chosen" by God from the beginning and that is part of the contrast and thus your point is false.

You never have and probably never will be honest with scripture to interpret it by its context. You do not finish the first verse and include the word "usward" and you fail to acknowledge the second is directed to baptized church members and the Holy Spirit is specifically said to be addressing "the churches" and those who already have "ears to hear" - the saved and he is speaking about FELLOWSHIP with the WHOLE CONGREGATION that has been broken by their sin. Try to be honest with scriptures just one time!

 

“The Bible and the Bible, alone, is the religion of Protestants,”

C.H. Spurgeon.

Romans 11:
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

Luke 12:9
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.

Psalm 69:28
May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.

Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

Hebrews 3:
2 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”[Psalm 95:7,8]
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Jude 1:5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[Some early manuscripts Jesus] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,



We are saved in Christ period. Those who was chosen before the foundation was already in Christ when Paul said it. He never told an unbeliever they were Chosen before the foundation of the world. So it is the new creation in Christ chosen before the foundation of the world not the old creation.

We all will be going through trials and tribulation that can choke out the seed before it matures. They will not be saved many because of their emotions do not want to believe this. So we as believers are to encourage others to believe and not turn away from Jesus no matter what.

Even if we are faithless and doubt our self we remain in Christ no matter what because Jesus will not disown Himself and no one can pluck you out of His hands.



1 John 2
Warnings Against Denying the Son

18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[Some manuscripts and you know all things] 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.



Emotions let some believe what the scripture do not teach.

 

You confuse control with controlling, and until you can get that straight, you will always have a faulty understanding.

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan
2 Thess 2

8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.


Notice that in 2Thess 2 the lost - those who perish are not said to perish because "God did not love them" - rather it is "because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved

In vs 9-12 we find that the lost are NOT lost because "God failed to select or elect them" -- that is not the reason scripture gives for their being lost.

And as Romans 2:11 points out "God is NOT partial" as some Calvinists have imagined him to be.

But rather God in the person of Christ is "the LIGHT the coming into the world ENLIGHTENS EVERY man" John 1.

Yet those in vs 9-12 "loved darkness rather than light" and in fact "did not receive a LOVE of the truth so as to be SAVED".

As you point out - this is contrasted with those who do receive that love of the truth in vs 13 and onward.

Indeed "God so LOVED the WORLD ---Yes really!" is the key text where you are stopping short.

vitriol alone will not solve the problem for OSAS in this case.

in Christ,

Bob

 

That is purely Bob Ryan's interpretation and that is precisely why you completely omit Paul's iinterpretative comparison in verse 13. Those in verse 13 are said explicitly to be "beloved" of God and the proof is their election from the beginning "TO" salvation whereas NO SUCH DESCRIPTIVES are given by Paul concerning those in verses 9-12.

 

Clearly you "needed" 2Thess 2 to say that those who perish in vs 9-11 do so "Because God did not love them". It is not at all in 2Thess 2

What is more - the Bible flatly debunks that doctrine saying that "God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL Should come to repentance" 2Peter 3 -- and of course the favorite of us all "God so Loved the WORLD -- yes REALLY!"

Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial" !! -- "yes really!"

1 John 4 "God sent His Son to be the savior of the WORLD" --- "yes really!"

1John 2:2 Christ is the "atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

"He came to His OWN - but His OWN received Him NOT!" John 1 ("yes really" could be added here if you like)

Matt 23 Christ said "o Jerusalem.. who stones the prophets... how I WANTED to spare your children.. but YOU would not"

He is "the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man" -- John 1 - but "men loved darkness rather than light"

He stands at the door and knocks "IF ANYONE hear my voice AND OPEN the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3. Not "I will burst down the door of those FEW that I arbitrarily select out in true partial fashion".

Scripture is providing the Arminian form of Gospel outreach that is so necessary to the Gospel even working at all.

in Christ,

Bob