When Did the Church Begin?

[Jerome]

Tom, check out the wording on these Baptist state convention and local associations' websites:

Spurgeon Baptist Association
"One significant point relevant to Southern Baptists is that all 293 messengers at the formation of the Southern Baptist Church at the First Baptist Church of Augusta, Georgia, came from associations that embraced this Confession."

Tri County Baptist Association
"Baptist Collegiate Ministry is a ministry by the Southern Baptist Church for Collegians of all faiths and denominations. . . .Baptist Collegiate Ministry is a national organization"

Illinois Baptist State Association
"We are also here for anyone who is looking to find a ministry position in the Southern Baptist Church."

Daniell Baptist Association
"We will look at the inspirational contributions of people like Lottie Moon, Ann Judson, A. H. Strong, and E.Y. Mullins in the growth of the Southern Baptist Church. We will also discuss the Cooperative Program which separates Southern Baptists from all other Baptists. This course will answer the question “What has it meant, historically, to be a Southern Baptist?
The Georgia Baptist Convention will issue 2 credit units upon completion of this course"

 

[DHK]

There are a couple of occasions in the New Testament where the word church is used in an abstract or generic sense. It is the same way we refer to marriage, home or family.

This is an important point also; one that U-church believers often fail to see.
The ekklesia is often used in a generic sense, as are many other singular nouns when referring to a group collectively.

For example:
"Man has sinned."
Well, which man? Tom, Dick, Harry, Bob, me? Which one is the statement speaking of? You may reply "all of mankind," but that is not what the statement says.

"A cup of coffee (12 oz.) contains about 150 mg of caffeine."
Which cup? yours or mine. Actually Starbucks is 160.
--One cup is used generically of all cups, though cups of coffee may vary one from other (as do churches).

In Acts 20, Paul called the elders or pastors from the assembly at Ephesus together:
Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
--After giving his testimony, he gave them this instruction:

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Notice he was speaking to the leaders of the Ephesus church and no others.
He tells them that their church (the Ephesian church) God purchased with his own blood. The word "church" is used in a generic sense. As he purchased the Ephesian church, so he purchased every Bible believing church with his own blood.
This is not an argument for a universal church. The context is Paul speaking to the Ephesian elders and not to all believers. The question to be asked is "How would these Ephesian elders have taken Paul's words?" The concept of a U-church would not have even entered their minds. They would have taken it personally as the entire context is very personal. They were to feed that very flock (not the "U-flock").

 

[Tom Butler]

This is an important point also; one that U-church believers often fail to see.
The ekklesia is often used in a generic sense, as are many other singular nouns when referring to a group collectively.

For example:
"Man has sinned."
Well, which man? Tom, Dick, Harry, Bob, me? Which one is the statement speaking of? You may reply "all of mankind," but that is not what the statement says.

"A cup of coffee (12 oz.) contains about 150 mg of caffeine."
Which cup? yours or mine. Actually Starbucks is 160.
--One cup is used generically of all cups, though cups of coffee may vary one from other (as do churches).

In Acts 20, Paul called the elders or pastors from the assembly at Ephesus together:
Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
--After giving his testimony, he gave them this instruction:

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Notice he was speaking to the leaders of the Ephesus church and no others.
He tells them that their church (the Ephesian church) God purchased with his own blood. The word "church" is used in a generic sense. As he purchased the Ephesian church, so he purchased every Bible believing church with his own blood.
This is not an argument for a universal church. The context is Paul speaking to the Ephesian elders and not to all believers. The question to be asked is "How would these Ephesian elders have taken Paul's words?" The concept of a U-church would not have even entered their minds. They would have taken it personally as the entire context is very personal. They were to feed that very flock (not the "U-flock").

Excellent, DHK.

 

[OldRegular]

Paul said the Church of God, not the Church at Ephesus. Furthermore Christ did not die for the church at Ephesus alone but for the Church of God. That means all of the redeemed throughout time!

I agree Paul himself was speaking to the elders of the Church at Ephesus but God was speaking through Paul to the Church!

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom, check out the wording on these Baptist state convention and local associations' websites:

Spurgeon Baptist Association
"One significant point relevant to Southern Baptists is that all 293 messengers at the formation of the Southern Baptist Church at the First Baptist Church of Augusta, Georgia, came from associations that embraced this Confession."

Tri County Baptist Association
"Baptist Collegiate Ministry is a ministry by the Southern Baptist Church for Collegians of all faiths and denominations. . . .Baptist Collegiate Ministry is a national organization"

Illinois Baptist State Association
"We are also here for anyone who is looking to find a ministry position in the Southern Baptist Church."

Daniell Baptist Association
"We will look at the inspirational contributions of people like Lottie Moon, Ann Judson, A. H. Strong, and E.Y. Mullins in the growth of the Southern Baptist Church. We will also discuss the Cooperative Program which separates Southern Baptists from all other Baptists. This course will answer the question “What has it meant, historically, to be a Southern Baptist?
The Georgia Baptist Convention will issue 2 credit units upon completion of this course"

They write, not knowing what they speak. There never has been and there is not now a denomination called THE Southern Baptist Church. I don't know a single Southern Baptist who holds this view. The sad thing is there must be some, and they reproduce!

 

[Tom Butler]

Paul said the Church of God, not the Church at Ephesus. Furthermore Christ did not die for the church at Ephesus alone but for the Church of God. That means all of the redeemed throughout time!

I agree Paul himself was speaking to the elders of the Church at Ephesus but God Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
was speaking through Paul to the Church

Let's look at Acts 20:28, where Paul is speaking to the elders of FBC Ephesus. He has called them to Miletus.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Paul is writing to the elders at Ephesus. He calls FBC Ephesus a flock. Which flock? The one over whom the Holy Spirit had made the elders overseers. A local congregation. Paul urges those elders/overseers to feed the church of God. Which one? The one over whom the HS had made them overseers. Which one is that? FBC Ephesus.

It's the same one which Jesus purchased with His own blood. The church of God. At Ephesus. And so it is with every other local congregation, purchased by His blood, as well.

 

[OldRegular]

Let's look at Acts 20:28, where Paul is speaking to the elders of FBC Ephesus. He has called them to Miletus.


Paul is writing to the elders at Ephesus. He calls FBC Ephesus a flock. Which flock? The one over whom the Holy Spirit had made the elders overseers. A local congregation. Paul urges those elders/overseers to feed the church of God. Which one? The one over whom the HS had made them overseers. Which one is that? FBC Ephesus.

It's the same one which Jesus purchased with His own blood. The church of God. At Ephesus. And so it is with every other local congregation, purchased by His blood, as well.

I understand all that but I also understand that Paul said: feed the church of God, singular, not plural!

 

[Tom Butler]

I understand all that but I also understand that Paul said: feed the church of God, singular, not plural!

Paul was speaking to the elders/pastors/overseers of the local congregation at Ephesus. He instructed them to feed the church of God over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.

They were overseers of FBC Ephesus, appointee through the work of the Holy Spirit. It is that entity which Paul described as the church of God.

These men were not in charge of any other congregation. They were to feed FBC Ephesus--the church of God at Ephesus. The pastor of my church has the same orders. He is the pastor of THE church of God which I serve.

From the context, I couldn't reach any other conclusion.

Off to la-la land. Sleep well, everybody.

 

[OldRegular]

We are a long way from the OP and that is the way conversations go. I understand where you are coming from in your interpretation of Acts 20:28; and you are not alone in that interpretation.. I just think my interpretation is better.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

We are a long way from the OP and that is the way conversations go. I understand where you are coming from in your interpretation of Acts 20:28; and you are not alone in that interpretation.. I just think my interpretation is better.

Yours is better:laugh:

 

[Tom Butler]

We are a long way from the OP and that is the way conversations go. I understand where you are coming from in your interpretation of Acts 20:28; and you are not alone in that interpretation.. I just think my interpretation is better.

Fair enough. At least we done a couple of good things in this thread.

One, we've kept it civil and used scripture to support our views.

Two, we've given some folks something to think about, and, I hope, drive them to their Bibles.

 

[saturneptune]

..............drive them to their Bibles.

How would you do that if the Bible is on the living room coffee table?

 

[beameup]

The "church" (the Bride of Christ) began in Acts chapter 9 with the conversion of Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles.

 

[OldRegular]

Fair enough. At least we done a couple of good things in this thread.

One, we've kept it civil and used scripture to support our views.

Two, we've given some folks something to think about, and, I hope, drive them to their Bibles.

Thanks Tom I appreciate that and have enjoyed the discussion. I would also appreciate you looking after our dear brother out there.

 

[Tom Butler]

The "church" (the Bride of Christ) began in Acts chapter 9 with the conversion of Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles.

Whoa!! This is a new one for me. Wanna expand this and give us your reasons?

 

[Tom Butler]

How would you do that if the Bible is on the living room coffee table?

Oops, got me there. Just drive as far as you can and get the rest of the way the best you know how.

 

[Tom Butler]

Thanks Tom I appreciate that and have enjoyed the discussion. I would also appreciate you looking after our dear brother out there.

If you're talking about SN, we sorta take care of each other. And best of all, we have wives who are saints.

 

[beameup]

Whoa!! This is a new one for me. Wanna expand this and give us your reasons?

Jesus revealed himself to Paul in 34 A.D. following the stoning of Stephen.
"The Twelve" remained in Jerusalem and Judea to convert the NATION of Israel.
The NATION had to repent and be baptized for the remission of their SIN of killing their Messiah,
which they failed to do even though God gave them and additional 36 years (34AD-70AD).
Only John's Gospel "gets it right", as it was written in 90 A.D. when it was clear that the NATION of Israel had failed.
He came unto his own, and his own received Him not.
But as many as received Him, to them gave he the power
to become the Sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
No repentance, no baptism, only faith.

The "Kingdom of Heaven" on earth has been "postponed" for almost 2,000 years now.
Jesus will reveal Himself again to a group of faithful Jews (144,000) as he did to Paul during the Tribulation.
These believing Jews will fulfill the Great Commission as they will have the H.S. gift of speaking other languages.
The Bride of Christ will have been removed from the earth prior to this. The 70th Week (of years) of Daniel
is yet future for the NATION of Israel. Estimates are 2 Billion saved during the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation.
Very easy to figure out when you "connect all the dots" left by the Holy Spirit in the N.T. See Romans 11:23-36
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

 

[Tom Butler]

Jesus revealed himself to Paul in 34 A.D. following the stoning of Stephen.
"The Twelve" remained in Jerusalem and Judea to convert the NATION of Israel.
The NATION had to repent and be baptized for the remission of their SIN of killing their Messiah,
which they failed to do even though God gave them and additional 36 years (34AD-70AD).
Only John's Gospel "gets it right", as it was written in 90 A.D. when it was clear that the NATION of Israel had failed.
He came unto his own, and his own received Him not.
But as many as received Him, to them gave he the power
to become the Sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
No repentance, no baptism, only faith.

The "Kingdom of Heaven" on earth has been "postponed" for almost 2,000 years now.
Jesus will reveal Himself again to a group of faithful Jews (144,000) as he did to Paul during the Tribulation.
These believing Jews will fulfill the Great Commission as they will have the H.S. gift of speaking other languages.
The Bride of Christ will have been removed from the earth prior to this. The 70th Week (of years) of Daniel
is yet future for the NATION of Israel. Estimates are 2 Billion saved during the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation.
Very easy to figure out when you "connect all the dots" left by the Holy Spirit in the N.T. See Romans 11:23-36
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Thanks, brother, for fleshing out your view. Lemme mull on this for a while, since I don't yet see what you see. I don't see how you make the connection with the beginning of the church and Jesus' appearance to Paul.

And it also raises the question: "What entity did Paul attempt to join himself to in Jerusalem?" (Acts 9) I say FBC Jerusalem. At first they wouldn't accept him until Barnabas vouched for him. And this was several years after his conversion. Paul went to an existing church.

 

[Allan]

Ok.. Here is a couple questions I have. Tom knows my answer (Acts 2) and we have a whole thread between us LONG AGO that hashed this out.. but I was curious about the questions below.

Can a group of people be considered a/the NT church if it does not believe in the resurrected Lord? Would we or scripture, consider them true believers if they held that the Messiah was dead and buried?

Yet that is exactly what the followers of Christ Jesus believed.. they did not believe. However this point is one of the unalterable prerequisits for eternal salvation declared by the NT that you believe Christ died, was buried, and rose again 3 days later.

However scripture notes that none of the disciples believed that He would rise or even that He was risen from dead after the women came back from the tomb.

Mar 16:10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept
Mar 16:13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Same with Luke 24 (they believed not)

The Gospel of Salvation that Paul (and all the others preached):

1Cr 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I'm curious at the answers.. I find them honestly a bit difficult in trying to reconcile them with being believers of the NT or New Covenant which requires faith in the Christ Jesus life, death, burial, AND resurrection.