Featured Giving by the Father - Jn. 6:37-65

“All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me” (John 6:37)

“This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me
I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” (John 6:39)

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44)

“It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’
Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” (John 6:45)

“And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me
unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (John 6:65)

“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all;
and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.” (John 10:29)

“as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life
to as many as You have given Him.” (John 17:2)

“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me,
for they are Yours.” (John 17:9)

“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am,
that they may behold My glory which You have given Me” (John 17:24)

“Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.” (Matthew 15:13)

IMO, none of these guarantee eternal life to anyone.

The toughest verse is #2, but is God's will always accomplished?
Think back through the OT, and currently in the NT.

Was it God's will that His chosen people and His BACs rebelled against Him,
continued to sin, and be disobedient, etc.?
Were all of His commands followed, etc.?
Was it God's will to strew His chosen people all over the desert floor?
(I can actually make the case that it was!)
Was it God's will that His BACs fall from grace, fall away period?
Was it God's will that His BACs who were "in Me" were fruitless?

But in the end, sorry ... Man's free will is King!
.

 

Well, Jesus said no man can come to him unless the Father draws him. So yes, this shows an inability. But verse 45 explains what this inability is, it is a lack of knowledge. Only those who have been taught by the Father, only those who have heard and learned from the Father come to Jesus. Therefore, this inability is due to a lack of knowledge, not because men lack the ability to believe.

Yes, a person MUST be drawn to come. This does not mean that all drawn come.

Look, if you go fishing, every fish you catch was drawn, you hooked that fish and pulled it into your boat. Does that mean every fish you hooked and drew to your boat was caught? NO, fishermen lose fish all the time. Some fish struggle and fight and jump off the line. Every fisherman knows this.

You can insist ten thousand times that all drawn will come, and you will be wrong ten thousand times. In the parable of the wedding feast, many were called and bid, they were drawn, but they refused to come.

The "every man" in verse 45 are those who listened to the word of God and learned. These are the ones who will come to Jesus. Those who did not listen and learn will not come to Jesus.

God attempted to teach them, but they refused to hear and learn.

Do you think teachers in our schools only attempt to teach SOME of their students? NO, they try to teach every single student. Some students listen and learn, while others goof and and never learn. It is the same with the word of God, some men listen and learn. These men will come to Christ. Other men refuse to listen and learn, these men will not come to Christ. But all were drawn, God attempted to teach every man, just as a good teacher attempts to teach every student in his or her class.

Now, why do I have to explain this to you? Children know this.

No, the "all" in John 12:32 means every single person everywhere. Just as a good teacher tries to teach every single student they have.

Boy, you are STUBBORN. Every person is drawn. God attempts to teach every person. But only those who take heed what they hear and listen to God learn. These persons who choose to listen and learn from God will come to Jesus.

Those foolish men who refuse to listen to God will not learn, and will not come to Jesus.

I'll tell you one person who is refusing to listen and learn right now, YOU.

 

Oh, enough said. I understand. I honestly couldn't figure out what you were disregarding about that quote. Now I know what you were meaning. Thanks for clarifying.

One thing at a time brother. No need to jump to conclusions. I will gladly address each point in time. I simply needed to know what about those things your rejected because those points were foundational to my argument. Now that I know you didn't reject those things, it helps.

This type of language and approach reflects poorly upon you personally and upon our whole forum and I would politely request that we refrain from taking this path. Thanks

 

Calvinism relies of simply repeating Calvinist dogma over and over and over.

When the Father "gives someone" to Christ" He spiritually places the person in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit.

When a person comes to Christ, in this context, the person is transferred into Christ by God. In one case this is expressed using a word that means arrive in, but in other cases, the word means to travel toward.

Lets look at a few assertions of Calvinist dogma and the actual passage:

Note believing in Christ as determined by God is a prerequisite for God giving a person to Christ, thus those believing (as discerned by God) will never thirst and those that come to (are placed in)Christ will never be hungry.

37 - All that the Father gives to Me (places spiritually in Me) will come to (arrive in) Me, and the one who comes (travels) to Me, I will certainly not cast out. Obviously entry into Christ rather than professing faith is in view because the person "placed in Christ" will not be cast out. The Calvinist view is simply an attempted rewrite.

44 - No one can come (travel) to Me, unless the Father who sent Me, draws him, and I will raise him up (the one who God transferred into Me) on the last day. So the sequence is a person must be drawn, then based of crediting their faith or not, the Father must transfer the person into Christ, and then Christ will raise him or her up on the last day.

Note the utterly false claim my view is that drawing is done by men. LOL

45 - From verse 45, we see that of those drawn, only those who have both heard and learned (as determined by God and indicated by Him crediting that faith as righteousness) are then those who come (travel) to Me, indicating God placing them in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit.

64 - As indicated in many passages, Jesus knew the hidden thoughts and motives and attitudes of those He interacted with. Thus of those professing belief and following Him, no doubt saying "Lord, Lord." He knew which of them believed wholeheartedly and which did not go "all in" for Jesus. Therefore He knew who did not believe, and who (Judas) would betray Him.

Note the redefinition of learned to say instilled. LOL

65 - Now in verse 65, John wraps it all up in a bow, no one can come (travel) to me unless it has been granted him from the Father. God can harden hearts and preclude wholehearted faith, and God can recognize less than wholehearted faith and not credit it as righteousness, and in either case, God does not transfer the person into Christ.

This is obvious and no amount of rewrite and word meaning change will alter the truth.

 

Learning from the Father simply means hearing and believing God's word as shown in John chapter 1.

Jhn 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

The "Messiah" was written of by Daniel (Dan 9:25,26). They knew of the Messiah because they knew and believed the writings of Daniel.

Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

When Philip and other disciples met Jesus, they knew he was the promised Messiah or Christ, because he lined up with those descriptions shown in the scriptures written by Moses and the prophets. This is how God revealed that Jesus was the Christ to the disciples.

Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Here Jesus told unbelievers if they believed the writings of Moses, then they would believe in him.

So, the scriptures do not show or say that God supernaturally zaps people with faith. God gave his word through prophets, and this was the revelation that enabled men to believe. And as I have quoted several times, Jesus warned his disciples to take heed how they hear, to those that hear more will be given, but to those who do not hear, even what was given them shall be taken away.

This shows that it was the hearer's responsibility to hear and learn, knowledge and faith is not imposed or instilled in any man unless he willingly desires to learn.

No, Jesus was simply saying that the revelation that he was the Christ came from the Father, just as it did to the other disciples who believed. They knew and believed the OT scriptures, when they heard the teachings of Jesus and saw his miracles, they recognized him as the Messiah or Christ promised in the scriptures.

Again, Jesus said that if men believed Moses writings, then they would believe him.

God's power is in his word, the Holy scriptures.

 

On this on the John 6:37-65 thread we have

All of these posts are from this thread and you are the one that started this line of reasoning about whether to address the system of belief or the person as having the flaw.

How am I getting the blame for your own initiative on this thread???

in Christ,

Bob

 

No...your understanding of logic fails as you don't comprehend the distinction between "necessary" conditions and "sufficient" conditions: your first premise is actually logically WRONG. You said:

Technically....that's simply bad logic:....

Here's the issue:
You substituted the NECESSARY condition that a man must be "drawn" for a SUFFICIENT condition....meaning that all who are drawn will come.

The Scriptures do NOT SAY that Everyone who is drawn WILL COME....only that no one can come EXCEPT they be drawn.... do you understand the distinction?

Similarly, the Scriptures teach that all who COME are now SUFFICIENTLY conditioned such that Christ WILL "raise them" on the last day.

The "necessary" condition was the status of one who "comes"...
The "sufficient" condition is that Christ will raise-up all who DO come....
Your logic is simply false:

What it teaches is this:

1.)EVERYONE who comes MUST BE "called"....(that's a necessary condition).

2.) Everyone who COMES...WILL BE "resurrected" (that's the sufficient condition.)

Your logic is simply bad...it's wrong, and that isn't a subjective matter of opinion...your logic is falsifiable.....It's simply WRONG.

This isn't an issue of "Arminian thinking" vs. "Calvinist-thinking"...it's as true and as objective as any syllogism in logic or mathematical sums are...

YOUR LOGIC IS FALSIFIABLY WRONG...

You do not understand the difference between "necessary" conditions...and "sufficient" ones....you are provably dead wrong with your argument.

 

You seem to believe if you repeat a falsehood over and over that somehow it becomes true. Not so.

First, being drawn and being taught are not the same. A person must be drawn to come to Jesus, and a person must be taught to come to Jesus, but not everyone who is drawn comes, while everyone who learns does come.

The only person here at BB that cannot easily distinguish between the two is YOU. And I think that is because you do not DESIRE to see the difference.

Verse 64-65 does not say one word about these persons not being drawn, you are reading that into the text. You do this CONSTANTLY.

Dude, you just do not know when to give it up. You are not convincing anyone. I don't even believe you have convinced yourself. You are grasping at straws.

Verse 44 says a person has to be drawn to come to Jesus. Verse 45 explains how a person is drawn to Jesus, by hearing and learning from the Father. Every man who has HEARD and LEARNED from the Father comes. Therefore, every man who refuses to hear and learn does not come to Jesus. Simple.

That is all it says, you should leave it at that.

Now you are just demonstrating how unbelievably stubborn and obstinate you are. Men pull and draw fish all the way to the boat, sometimes INTO the boat, but the fish fights and resists and many times gets away. You are just making a complete fool out of yourself now.

Well, you are lucky, I could go to Youtube and show you a fish jumping out of a boat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me9fXM5cpME

Here, just for you, a video of a fish being pulled or DRAWN into a boat that got away.

Amazing how childish a grown man can be.

Jesus also told his disciples to "take heed how ye hear" which shows the hearer is responsible to hear and learn.

Unbelievable. You cannot grasp that each student in school is responsible to learn from their teacher.

What? When you are invited to a wedding the host has to buy your suit? You are getting more and more ridiculous by the moment.

No, they did not listen and learn, or according to Jesus they would have come to him in verse 45.

It says no such thing. You are reading into scripture what is not there.

Jesus does not say one word about some people not being drawn in John 6:64-65, that is something you have invented in your mind.

I am not going to keep arguing with you, you have demonstrated that you are a total fanatic who must twist and wrest scripture to agree with your presuppositions.

 

I find it quite wondrous that a professing Baptist who uses Catholic Apologist Peter Kreeft as his worthy signature quote is now an expert on logic.

Inspector, I strongly suggest you carefully ‘inspect’ Dr. Kreeft’s “7 Reasons to be Catholic”, as you obviously believe you and Kreeft are on the same ‘logical’ page.

Re: Necessary vs. Sufficient……The eternal will of God is both necessary and sufficient to save all whom He wills to save.

It is necessary because without it, nothing would or could exist.

It is sufficient because His will is all-wise, all-powerful and infallible in achieving His purposes.

His purpose to save specific sinners cannot fail.

To achieve that purpose He has predestined the necessary and sufficient means.

It is in His Elect that He irresistibly and graciously gives the means to actually fulfill the conditions necessary to salvation.

Christ paid not only the sin debt of the Elect, but He also purchased all the spiritual gifts necessary to salvation.

Scripture screams the spiritual truths we Calvinists preach.

Unfortunately, the spiritually deaf cannot hear no matter how loud God turns up the volume.

All whom the Father gives to Christ, WILL COME to Him, and those alone Christ will in nowise cast out.

 

"no man can" is a snippet incomplete thought. Try the complete sentence or at the very least a complete thought to quote. Then you will see the problem with your own statement.

Indeed neither the saved nor the lost - were ever in a condition where they could "of themselves" come to Christ without the DRAWING of God.

And of course Christ said "I will DRAW ALL" John 12:32

You are slicing and chopping up the statement and the result is mush.

Leave it as it is. The "no one can come UNLESS the Father DRAWS them" is the ONE thought that applies to ALL.

The saints were not at one time "lost people that came to Christ APART from the drawing of God". Even you cannot deny this.

And neither are those who choose to REMAIN in rebellion against God are not able to come to Christ unless supernaturally DARWN. Again you cannot deny this.

Thus it is the same with BOTH groups. Neither of them CAN COME to Christ on their own - apart from the supernatural drawing by God.


None of them (saint or lost person) could have come to Christ without that drawing of God. And He says He "Draws ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

Not one place in that text do we find what you claim John 6:64-65 declares so you just "quote you" when you state "some had NEVER BEEN drawn" and then you preface your own "quote of you" with "John 6:64-65 declares "

The same goes for "you quoting you" when you get to the all important ""ALL" who have been drawn/taught DO COME TO CHRIST (Jn. 6:45)" claim it is merely "you quoting you" - no such "drawn/taught" words in the actual text.

Rather the text says

"44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

They must be DRAWN, they must choose to HEAR, and they must choose to LEARN - to then have the result that "they come to Me".



Does this sound familiar??

Christ does not split man into two groups (wicked and saints) in John 6 but rather he inlcudes ALL HUMANS in the universal negative "NO MAN can come to Me UNLESS the Father Draws Him". No one CAN come to God without that drawing - and ALL are drawn. So it includes ALL humans in every sense.

This applies to ALL the saints and ALL the wicked.

Neither gropu came to Christ WITHOUT the Drawing of God nor CAN they do it "on their own".

Thus as Jesus said "I Will DRAW ALL unto ME" John 12:32.

in Christ,

Bob

 

you will be pleased then with "God is not WILLING for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

For "God sent His Son ... to be the Savior of the World" 1John 4

"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1.

in Christ,

Bob