Featured Giving by the Father - Jn. 6:37-65

That is not what Paul spells out regarding the mystery of the gospel. Just like the concept of 'God's PRESENT RACIAL SPHERE of redemptive activity' is not something that is ever actually taught in the scriptures. Those are concepts you bring to the table in order to justify your particular system of soteriology.

Paul said that the "mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus." That is something Peter had to be taught (white sheet dream) and the point that Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles, was having to defend at every turn in his ministry.

YES, the Law and prophets testified to the truth, but it was only with the revelation of the NT authors that these truths were being fully and completely unveiled for the world. The gospel was being sent first to the Jew and then the Gentile. The Jew was first in the vine, but now the Gentile was being grafted in. That is significant to our understanding of election.

Election is about nations being ENABLED to RESPOND to God's revelation and at the time Christ is on earth Israel is being BLINDED (made unable) to respond and the Gentiles are being made ABLE to RESPOND. Paul explains it about as clearly as it can be explained in Acts 28:

26 " 'Go to this people [Israel] and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!" ​

 

Hey IJ,

I like Peter Kreeft too. He is a clear, logical and rational thinker for christianity. I have even read some of Scott Hahn. I find many catholic writers, particularly those expressing their gift in the realm of science to be quite gifted.

 

No, it is not.

Election is about God the Father choosing specific individual sinners whom He wills to save before those persons -- both Jews and Gentiles [even Gentiles before the creation of Israel] -- did anything to merit salvation, including believing on the Savior who was to come, or Jesus Christ, the Savior who came.

Election is about the eternal, unconditional love of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for specific sinners......sinners who hated God.

Election is about the infallible purpose of God the Father to actually save those specific God-hating sinners.

Election is about providing the infallible means by which those elected will certainly attain salvation.

Election is about the Son willingly dying in the place of those specific sinners whom the Father has chosen.

Election is about the Son purchasing for the Elect all the spiritual gifts necessary to the attainment of their salvation.

Election is about the Holy Spirit irresistibly and effectually applying these gifts to the same Elect.

Election is about God's infallible purpose to gather a people for His name who will worship and enjoy Him forever.

 

:applause::applause::applause:

 

You are slicing and chopping up the statement and the result is mush.

Leave it as it is. The "no one can come UNLESS the Father DRAWS them" is the ONE thought that applies to ALL.

The saints were not at one time "lost people that came to Christ APART from the drawing of God". Even you cannot deny this.

And neither are those who choose to REMAIN in rebellion against God are not able to come to Christ unless supernaturally DARWN. Again you cannot deny this.

Thus it is the same with BOTH groups. Neither of them CAN COME to Christ on their own - apart from the supernatural drawing by God.


None of them (saint or lost person) could have come to Christ without that drawing of God. And He says He "Draws ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

Not one place in that text do we find what you claim John 6:64-65 declares so you just "quote you" when you state "some had NEVER BEEN drawn" and then you preface your own "quote of you" with "John 6:64-65 declares "

The same goes for "you quoting you" when you get to the all important ""ALL" who have been drawn/taught DO COME TO CHRIST (Jn. 6:45)" claim it is merely "you quoting you" - no such "drawn/taught" words in the actual text.

Rather the text says

"44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

They must be DRAWN, they must choose to HEAR, and they must choose to LEARN - to then have the result that "they come to Me".



Does this sound familiar??

Christ does not split man into two groups (wicked and saints) in John 6 but rather he inlcudes ALL HUMANS in the universal negative "NO MAN can come to Me UNLESS the Father Draws Him". No one CAN come to God without that drawing - and ALL are drawn. So it includes ALL humans in every sense.

This applies to ALL the saints and ALL the wicked.

Neither gropu came to Christ WITHOUT the Drawing of God nor CAN they do it "on their own".

"The problem" with your slicing the text in this way is that you must everty so carefully leave out the compound conditions of vs 45 almost denying that the reference back in vs 65 includes what was said.

45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

It is "DRAWN" AND it is "HEARD" AND it is "learned" that results in "Comes ot Me" as is pointed out in vs 45.

Thus "I will DRAW ALL" John 12:32 does not mean "all will learn, all will choose to hear -- all will come to Me"

John 6:70 "have I not chosen YOU the twelve and yet one of you is a devil".

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

Hint: vs 44 AND vs 45 where the COMPOUND conditions for coming to Christ are listed. Your effort to downsize it to a single condition does not allow for --

John 6:70 "have I not chosen YOU the twelve and yet one of you is a devil".

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

NOT TEXT - no note even John 6 says "The Father NEVER drew "some" of his disciples" -- so what do you do for that much needed text?? you "quote you".

yet it is the salient point of your argument - and you only have "you" to quote for it.

Fact - the fictious phrase "drawn/taught/heard/learned" as if it were all one word - one thing - is not found in all of scripture. For that salient point in your own argument you must again "quote you".

Not all have been Drawn AND taught AND heard AND learned but "I will DRAW ALL unto ME" John 12:32 -- ALL have been drawn.

Notice that John 12 does not say "I will DRAW/teach/make hear/force-to-learn ALL unto ME".

It is just "DRAW" and that is the supernatural drawing of God that EVEN in Calvinism - enables the free will CHOICE that depravity disables - to accept the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

^^^^What he said^^^^

 

That's downright error on your part, yet you've attempted for quite awhile now to distort the Sovereignty of God in election, reprobation &c.

So, everyone is elect and you're a Universalist? Do you follow Rob Bell now as well? Is he also a Unitarian in theology? Wonder where all this error leads? It's definitely going down the wrong path theologically.

 

Christ said "hearing they do not HEAR"

Christ claimed that what HE taught - they would not accept.

But in the case of John 6 we have Drawn AND we have heard AND we have Learned. This is a compound "AND" condition that leads to "will come to Me".

That is not a conclusion found in the text - it is a conclusion you are drawing out of the text by assuming that to "DRAW all men unto Me" John 12:32 means all men choose to HEAR and LEARN as God teaches when in fact they do not choose to do that - hence in Matt 13 Christ describes how his teaching is being rejected by those who "hearing - do not hear".

For "Men loved darkness rather than light" John 3.

"He is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY one" John 1.



Luke 10:16 “The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”

Luke 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him

Luke 16:31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Luke 7
30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John. 31 “To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? 32 They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.’ 33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!

Matt 23
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!



"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Firstly....I couldn't care less if I WAS the only one who disagreed (I'd still be correct)...but, I don't actually believe that's true either....You may have manipulated some into accepting propositions (that you are likely using a different definition for)....but, they DO NOT agree that all who are "drawn" are irresistibly "taught" and subsequently "learn"....NO, they are not synonymous, and your first premise is wrong.

Looking briefly at Bob's post....I do not think that he is so very in agreement with you over and against me, as you claim. Look at this by him:

and

and this:

Nope...that's pretty much a "someone" who might be included in your definition of "everyone" who CLEARLY does not accept your first premise....but, rather agrees with me that it is wrong....they are NOT synonymous....those who "COME" are those who "have been drawn, AND taught AND learned"...not ONLY those who are "drawn"....(it's his insistence on paying attention to the word "and" that gives it away.)

So....there's at least two of us, now....you may continue rescuing your argument from the majority from here.