Biblicist said:
Quote:
whereas "EXCEPT the Father...draw" is the ONLY EXCEPTION to this universal rule.
You are slicing and chopping up the statement and the result is mush.
Leave it as it is. The "
no one can come UNLESS the Father DRAWS them" is the ONE thought that applies to ALL.
The saints were not at one time "lost people that came to Christ APART from the drawing of God". Even you cannot deny this.
And neither are those who choose to REMAIN in rebellion against God are not able to come to Christ unless supernaturally DARWN. Again you cannot deny this.
Thus it is the same with BOTH groups. Neither of them CAN COME to Christ on their own - apart from the supernatural drawing by God.
None of them (saint or lost person) could have come to Christ without that drawing of God. And He says He "
Draws ALL unto Me" John 12:32.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biblicist
John 6:64-65 declares some had NEVER BEEN drawn/taught/given by the Father. However, "ALL" who have been drawn/taught DO COME TO CHRIST (Jn. 6:45).
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Not one place in that text do we find what you claim
John 6:64-65 declares so you just "quote you" when you state "
some had NEVER BEEN drawn" and then you preface your own "quote of you" with "
John 6:64-65 declares "
The same goes for "you quoting you" when you get to the all important ""
ALL" who have been drawn/taught DO COME TO CHRIST (Jn. 6:45)" claim it is merely "you quoting you" - no such "drawn/taught" words in the actual text.
Rather the text says
"44
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me
draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘
They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who
has heard the Father
and learned from him
comes to me."
They must be DRAWN, they must choose to HEAR, and they must choose to LEARN - to then have the result that "they come to Me".
Does this sound familiar??
Christ does not split man into two groups (wicked and saints) in John 6 but rather
he inlcudes ALL HUMANS in the universal negative
"NO MAN can come to Me UNLESS the Father Draws Him". No one CAN come to God without that drawing - and ALL are drawn. So it includes ALL humans in every sense.
This applies to ALL the saints and ALL the wicked.
Neither gropu came to Christ WITHOUT the Drawing of God nor CAN they do it "on their own".
Your whole argument rests completely on the veracity of your denial above and you are wrong!
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?............64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
FACT #1 - No one can HONESTLY deny that verse 65 is the reassertion of verse 44 by Christ. Indeed, his words "therefore I said unto you" refer to a past statemenet made by him which can be found nowhere in the context but verse 44.
"The problem" with your slicing the text in this way is that you must everty so carefully leave out the compound conditions of vs 45 almost denying that the reference back in vs 65 includes what was said.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘
They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who
has heard the Father
and learned from him
comes to me."
It is "DRAWN" AND it is "HEARD" AND it is "learned" that results in "Comes ot Me" as is pointed out in vs 45.
Thus "
I will DRAW ALL" John 12:32 does not mean "all will learn, all will choose to hear -- all will come to Me"
John 6:70 "
have I not chosen YOU the twelve and yet one of you is a devil".
"
He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1
FACT#3 - No one can HONESTLY deny the issue of verse 64 is UNBELIEF and Jesus is applying verse 44 directly to that issue! However, that is exactly what you are denying.
Hint: vs 44 AND vs 45 where the COMPOUND conditions for coming to Christ are listed. Your effort to downsize it to a single condition does not allow for --
John 6:70 "
have I not chosen YOU the twelve and yet one of you is a devil".
"
He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1
FACT#5 - The Father NEVER drew "some" of his disciples and He knew this "FROM THE BEGINNING" of their profession of faith as "disciples" and that is precisely why he applied verse 44 to these specified disciples.
NOT TEXT - no note even John 6 says "The Father NEVER drew "some" of his disciples" -- so what do you do for that much needed text?? you "quote you".
yet it is the salient point of your argument - and you only have "you" to quote for it.
FACT#6 - Not only "some" of his disciples but many in his audiance had never been drawn/taught/heard/learned
Fact - the fictious phrase "drawn/taught/heard/learned" as if it were all one word - one thing - is not found in all of scripture. For that salient point in your own argument you must again "quote you".
FACT#7 - Therefore, not ALL men without exception have been drawn/taught/heard/learned
Not all have been Drawn AND taught AND heard AND learned but "
I will DRAW ALL unto ME" John 12:32 -- ALL have been drawn.
Notice that John 12 does not say "
I will DRAW/teach/make hear/force-to-learn ALL unto ME".
It is just "DRAW" and that is the supernatural drawing of God that EVEN in Calvinism - enables the free will CHOICE that depravity disables - to accept the Gospel.
in Christ,
Bob
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