Featured Double Double Toil and Trouble

Who's calling Biblical literature "fiction"? I was not aware that anyone here was.

All of those statements of David contained real truths. Truths about how he felt, how the Holy Spirit convicts us, how we are to perceive ourselves when humbled by our own sin, how our sin separates us from fellowship with God, how empty we are and feel when we are in sin, how true repentance and God's cleansing grace restores right fellowship with him etc............

I'm just saying what it does NOT do, is establish some specific doctrine about how all infants (at conception) are inherently guilty of sin anymore than it establishes that the method of God's cleansing us from sin is to physically scrub us with a hyssop plant or that when sinning, God physically breaks our bones....

In other words:
Yes...Columbus was indeed kewl and sailed in 1492 and all that, and subsequently that poem contains truth.

But do you honestly BELIEVE that the water in the ocean possesses the property of actually being BLUE?
If you fail to believe that the ocean is indeed "blue" are you then calling that poem and it's historical truths "fiction"?

 

The reason God must scrub us is because we are unclean from birth
For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. (Psalm 51:3-5, 7 ESV)

 

I agree completely that Jacob and Esau had also done no good, that is directly what Romans 9:11 says.

Nevertheless, it is sin that sends us to hell, the wages of SIN is death, and Jacob and Esau had done no evil. They were not much different than the good angels. The good angels have not merited heaven, but neither have they been cast out of heaven for evil.

Note that in the parable of the lost sheep, there was no celebration for the 99 sheep who never went astray and did not need repentance. Likewise, notice the elder son complained that no celebration had ever been made for him.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

There is no celebration for those who were never lost.

There is NO WAY the elder son is lost, you cannot possibly get that from the text. The father calls him "Son" and says, "thou art EVER with me and ALL that I have is THINE". This is absolutely not a lost person. God does not call lost persons his "son" and sinners are separated from God by sin. This young man was NEVER separated from his father and never will be.

Note also that the father contrasts the elder son to his younger brother the prodigal. Only the prodigal was "dead" and "lost". The elder son was never dead or lost.

Finally, twice Jesus said the prodigal son was "alive again". If Original Sin is true, then no man was ever born alive to begin with, and it could not be said that any man was "alive again", but Jesus said this twice pertaining to the prodigal. This is further proof that the prodigal son was not born dead in sin, and he was not originally separated from his father. It is only when he knowingly and willingly went out in sin that he became dead and lost.

The elder son was NEVER dead or lost. You cannot get that from the text, the text by contrasting him to his prodigal brother strongly implies he was never lost or dead.

Luk 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

NO WAY the elder son was lost.

 

Thank you for your responses Jacob (I haven't bothered to say Welcome to B.B. yet) sorry! :wavey:

Gonna go play with my gazillion kids. I would like to respond to this post of yours later. I appreciate your willingness to engage in conversation. I hope I have not in any way been rude, insulting or un-brotherly in my posts to you:1_grouphug:

 

No Skan, they are no longer sinners, their sin is washed away. They are as white as snow.

All sin is unbelief. If Adam and Eve would have believed God's word, they would not have eaten the forbidden fruit.

No, you are wrong. When the rich ruler asked Jesus what he must do to inherit life, Jesus told him "You know the commandments, this do and live". If a man perfectly kept the commandments, he would merit eternal life.

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

If a man perfectly keeps the commandments, he will merit life. When the scriptures say that no man is justified by the law, it is simply saying that no man has or will ever perfectly keep the law. But in reality, if a man did keep the law, he would live. Jesus does not lie.

I think the 99 just persons who have never sinned and need no repentance are the millions, if not billions of unborn and little children who have died before they reached the age of accountability. Heaven must be FULL of children like this.

I can think of no one else that lived without sinning.

And I cannot believe Jesus would make up nonsensical stories about people that could not possibly exist. That makes no sense whatsoever. Jesus was not given to flights of fancy. And Jesus did not make mistakes, if he said the elder son never sinned, he knew exactly what he was saying.

Yes, he died early, that is why he has been there (heaven) so many years serving his father.

I doubt you'll find anybody anywhere that interprets this scripture like this, so what? You can read, it says what it says.

You believe death is separation, and the elder son was never separated from this father and never will be. That is what the text says.

Give me a break, this parable has nothing to do with Jews and Gentiles.

The three parables are one. The Pharisees condemned Jesus because he spent time and ate with "sinners". Jesus is showing these Pharisees that these wicked sinners are in reality children of God that God is very concerned about. He is not willing that even one of these persons perish, he will leave 99 that have not sinned and need no repentance to go and look for that one lost sinner. He is showing these Pharisees that these "wicked sinners" that they despise hold great value to God.

Nevertheless, Jesus is also showing that there are some persons who have not sinned and need no repentance. I cannot think of any persons these could be except children. And it is notable in Matthew 18 when speaking specifically of children that Jesus repeats the story of a shepherd with 100 sheep, one goes astray and becomes lost, he searches and recovers it.

Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

It's right there if you will receive it.

 

I do not, as my understanding is that while the Lord himself determines by act of His will the salvation of those whom he desired to save out from among all sinners, in that He determined and predestined those to salvation, He passive fashion passed over the rest, as he alloows/permits them to go the way they want to go!

 

Thank you very much! Have fun!

 

I'd rather not speak for Winman...but I think simple clarification might be helpful:

 

Winman affirms this...especially the portion you bolded.

He agrees that they are inclined irreparably towards evil-doing and that that is inherited from Adam by their very nature and their present accursed environment....

What he doesn't say, is that they are actually GUILTY of having committed any sin when it is (by default) impossible for them to have actually done so.

I don't see how that is so very difficult to understand.

Many Christians throughout history have affirmed a similar Theology.


I hope is wasn't overly presumptuous to speak for him....or that I mis-represent his view.