Featured "given" is inclusive of "draw" in John 6

Give me a break, I was simply using your same argument on you. So, according to you, you are using tactics to distract and redirect because your interpretation has been proven to be false and you can't respond.

This is like arguing with a teenager.

They aren't necessarily anything. The scripture simply says that all the Father gives Jesus will come to him, it does not say why this is so.

I am not ignoring anything, Jesus said no man can come to him unless the Father draws him. Jesus did not say all that are drawn will come.

My denial of your view is solid, the scriptures do not say what you are claiming they say.

You can talk about grammar all you want, the scriptures do not say what you are claiming they say. The scriptures do not say that being given causes a person to come to Jesus. That might possibly be true, but the scriptures are silent on this issue. Likewise, the scriptures do not say all that are drawn will come to Jesus. You can't show it, because it isn't there.

Yes, we are told Jesus came to do the will of his Father. And we are told that the Father's will is that he not lose those that are given to him. But it doesn't say being given causes a person to come to Jesus, and it doesn't say all that are drawn will come.

You seem to really believe that if you repeat a falsehood ten thousand times, that it will miraculously become truth. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it ain't gonna happen.

And no amount of stubborn insistence on your part will make your view become truth.

 

Okay, now explain to me how that not everyone who is born into this world and from birth------>death never hear of this Man Jesus Christ, yet He will draw all w/o exception? Yes, the gospel goes out into all the world to be proclained. Yet, only the sheep hear it joyfully. How then can Jesus draw someone that doesn't know He even exists, when it states differently in Romans 10:14?

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

 

This is the third time I have bumped this to get a response to it. I think it is quite sound, and I would like for someone to honor me with their rebuttal. Thanks in advance. :thumbs:

 

Willis, I will be honest, I do not know how God will deal with persons who have never heard the gospel. That said, I don't believe you can simply assume God doesn't care about them and that they are goats. That is pure assumption on your part.

You can't build doctrine on what you do not know. That is a recipe for disaster, but that seems to be what you want to do. The scriptures plainly tell us to go and and tell every creature the gospel, so God wants everyone to hear it and be saved. I do not buy this Calvinist view that God tells people to damn them. They are damned already.

Now, will everybody be saved? No. God knows this, and we know this. Nevertheless, we are told to tell everyone.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Now, some believe Jesus preached to those who never heard the gospel in Noah's day;

1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Now, I don't know if this is the correct interpretation for this verse, but it might be.

All I know is that God will do what is just and right. I don't know how he will deal with folks that never hear the gospel, but I believe the scriptures are clear that he is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

well

All who have never heard are all lost/unsaved
All who have not herad will be judged by light they did receive
All God would know how they would have responded to Gospel if heard

Mine would be those whom God desires to save will somehow get the message!

 

He really thinks it went in, but it was just another air-ball.

 

have to give you credit, at least, while you cannot refute him from tjhe Bible itself, least have a sense of humour about it!

 

well, lets just say that he is "missing the mark!"

 

Brother, I believe with everything that is in me that you're a man of integrity, not in a boasting way, but always doing and believeing what the bible says about are certain topic, such as election/predestination. I think deep down inside of you, you know the answer and have a hard time accepting it. Look, if you think my theological shift was easy, think again. I came to these conclusions through prayer, study, and to a certain extent, grief. But I do know that not one person in hell will be there by mistake, the same can be said for those who make it to heaven. Shall not the God of the earth do right? Yessiree!!

 

Willis, if you are suggesting that deep down I believe Calvinism is true, then you do not know me at all. I believe with all my heart that Calvinism is tremendous error, and NOT what the scriptures are teaching. I have provided probably hundreds of scriptures over the past 4 years that utterly refutes Calvinism.

I find it difficult to believe that anybody who has spent time reading the Bible can believe Calvinism. you run into problems on every page.

I believe the reason people believe Calvinism is because they truly do not know the scriptures and have been indoctrinated by Reformed teachers who pull scripture out of context to prop up Calvinism, at the same time completely ignoring literally HUNDREDS of verses that easily refute it. Calvinism must constantly redefine words to work, and often argue that scripture does not mean what it plainly and simply says.

I think you need to do a WHOLE LOT MORE praying Willis.

 

No Brother, that's not what I meant at all. I was referencing your quote that you honestly didn't know how God will deal with those who never heard of Jesus or His gospel. I think deep down inside of you you know how he'll deal with them. The word is replete...if that's the correct word...in how He will deal with them.

Sorry about causing the confusion by not being clearer in my previous post.

 

And yes, I always need more prayer. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

One more thing; I was once where you are right now. I knew calvinism was patently false. I knew I had it by the "short hairs". I called it a "doctrine of devils" many, many times. I believe God showed me I was wrong. I have always been receptive to change...not saying you aren't either...and when I heard preachers say "I chose Jesus", I'd amen it, yet something deep inside me cringed. I know we accept Jesus, yet He has to do His work first. According to the bible, not everyone will hear about Him, yet pay for it anyways.

 

Willis, you have never been where I am.

You say you have a problem saying you chose Jesus. Do you have the same problem saying you love Jesus? I bet you would say that in a heartbeat, and you should. Oh, you will say you love him because he first loved you. And that is EXACTLY correct.

1 Jhn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

We love Jesus because he first loved us. Even Calvinists can agree with this scripture. Well Willis, election is the same. We chose Jesus because he first chose us. You couldn't choose Jesus unless he came and died on the cross for your sins and rose from the dead. And you couldn't choose Jesus unless he sent someone, maybe a preacher, maybe a friend, maybe a family member, but Jesus sent someone to tell you he died for you and rose from the dead, and that if you would trust him, he would save you.

So you see Willis, he chose you first. And now you must choose him. Jesus does not force himself on anyone, he does not break the door down, he does not change your will. You must open the door and invite him in. And if you do he will come in, he has been waiting all along, he chose you first.

But you MUST choose him.

Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

 

I agree we choose Him, too. In a marriage...Christ and the bride, His body, His church, are married to each other. There has to be two "yesses" in any marriage. But, Christ didn't enter into a marriage with everyone, but only His bride. He even loved her so much He gave His life for her.

Not everyone is told the good news of Jesus Christ, Brother winman. They will perish w/o Law. They were never in the intended covenant with Jesus Christ...and never will...

 

Real simple question for you Willis, if Jesus did not die for everyone, then how do you know he died for you?

How do you know you are one of the elect Willis?