"given" is inclusive of "draw" in John 6

[Winman]

What has the wording in John 6:44 have to do with the wording in John 6:37???? You are employing debated tactics, such as distraction and redirecting from the proof that your interpretation of John 6:37 is wrong to something we are not even addressing here. Why? Because your interpretation has been proven to be false and you can't respond so you distract, redirect, change the subject.

Give me a break, I was simply using your same argument on you. So, according to you, you are using tactics to distract and redirect because your interpretation has been proven to be false and you can't respond.

This is like arguing with a teenager.

They are NECESSARILY INCLUSIVE of each other as coming is the consequence of both. Being given by the Father necessarily includes being drawn by the Father as "no man can come" whom the Father does not draw and "ALL" those given do in fact come.

They aren't necessarily anything. The scripture simply says that all the Father gives Jesus will come to him, it does not say why this is so.

You are ignoring and trying to distract from the fact that "draweth" is PRESENT TENSE but "shall come" is FUTURE TENSE and grammatically this demands that being given PRECEDES coming regardless of your denials. This is the grammar and you can deny it but it does not change it! You are simply wrong and too committed to irrational dogma to simply admit the grammatical facts.

I am not ignoring anything, Jesus said no man can come to him unless the Father draws him. Jesus did not say all that are drawn will come.

Your denial is both grammatically disproven and logically disproven!

My denial of your view is solid, the scriptures do not say what you are claiming they say.

First, the stated GRAMMACTICAL CAUSE and only stated criteria for coming to Christ is being given by the Father, as being given is the only criteria provided for FUTURE TENSE coming. Hence, the grammatical tenses provide a LOGICAL ORDERED RELATIONSHIP between being given and shall come. This present tense giving of "all" to the Son is ALWAYS EFFECTUAL as none fail to come that are first given and thus coming is the EFFECTUAL consequence of being given and the only CRITERIA for future tense come. So you cannot HONESTLY deny that the grammatical cause for coming is found in only one stated criteria - being given - thus the ONLY stated cause for effectual coming.

You can talk about grammar all you want, the scriptures do not say what you are claiming they say. The scriptures do not say that being given causes a person to come to Jesus. That might possibly be true, but the scriptures are silent on this issue. Likewise, the scriptures do not say all that are drawn will come to Jesus. You can't show it, because it isn't there.

Second, verses 38-39 demands the reason for the Son coming into the world was to effectually secure God's will of purpose for eternal salvation "of all" which the Father "HATH GIVEN" the Son. He did not say the Son was sent into the world to effectually secure God's will of purpose for eternal salvation "of all" that "SHALL COME." Indeed, coming to Christ is omitted completely from verses 38-39 showing that the CAUSE for Christ coming and the CAUSE of "all" coming to Christ and the CAUSE for eternal security of "ALL" of these is due to being "given" not coming. Let this sink in! However, your theory and interpretation would demand the very opposite as you place the cause of salvation on coming rather than being given but Jesus demands the cause for eternal salvation and for him being sent into the world is found in being "given" just as this is also explicitly stated in John 17:2 where coming is completely ommitted and the cause is completely attributed to being given - "as many as the Father hath given" is the only criteria stated and given as the basis to give eternal life.

Yes, we are told Jesus came to do the will of his Father. And we are told that the Father's will is that he not lose those that are given to him. But it doesn't say being given causes a person to come to Jesus, and it doesn't say all that are drawn will come.

You seem to really believe that if you repeat a falsehood ten thousand times, that it will miraculously become truth. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it ain't gonna happen.

No amount of denial or dogma or misintepreted proof texting can reverse this grammatical and expliclty stated cause is beng given for both coming to Christ, for Christ coming into the world and the absolute eternal security "of all" the Father "HATH GIVEN" (note he did not say "of all that shall come but restricts the cause to being given for coming and eternal security).

And no amount of stubborn insistence on your part will make your view become truth.

 

[The Biblicist]

This is like arguing with a teenager.

The best self-analysis provided from your own lips. Your responses are completely and utterly irrrational. There is no sense to respond to such nonsense, so I leave you to your own imaginations.

 

[The Biblicist]

Second, verses 38-39 demands the reason for the Son coming into the world was to effectually secure God's will of purpose for eternal salvation "of all" which the Father "HATH GIVEN" the Son. He did not say the Son was sent into the world to effectually secure God's will of purpose for eternal salvation "of all" that "SHALL COME." Indeed, coming to Christ is omitted completely from verses 38-39 showing that the CAUSE for Christ coming and the CAUSE of "all" coming to Christ and the CAUSE for eternal security of "ALL" of these is due to being "given" not coming. Let this sink in!

For those Arminians that are serious about dealing with real objections to their interpretation of this passage and who demonstrate that by directly and honestly addressing the problem I set forth, this is a real problem for them.

The stated cause for "all" coming to Christ is the same stated cause for sending Christ into the world to secure their eternal salvation and in neither case is that they "shall come" to Christ but rather instead because they had been "given" by the Father. Indeed, the very term "come" is wholly omitted in verses 38-39 while the emphasis is intentionally placed on being "given" as the cause for sending Christ into the world to secure their salvation.

The whole Arminians interpretation repudiates the actual wording and the actual stated criteria for coming and the actual purpose for Christ being sent into the world. According to the Arminian interpretation this passage should read:

"All that come to the Son shall have been given by the Father due to foreknowledge, and all that cometh unto me I shall in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which shall come unto me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

He could have said this if that was his intention, but he clearly did not say this. Arminians must REVERSE his actual wording to support their interpretation.

Furthermore, being given is effectual to salvation as "all" who are given do in fact come and "I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING." That means being given is INCLUSIVE of being drawn because "no man can come except the Father draw him" and ALL DO IN FACT COME.

Moreover, the "all" in John 6:45a equals exactly the "all" in verse 37-39 because Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 RESTRICT that "all' to only those human beings actually saved under the New Covenant whether Jews or Gentiles as the direct application of Jeremiah 31:33-34 is to only those who partake of the New Covenant in Hebrews 8 and 10. This quotation defines "draw" to be synonomous with "taught" in verse 45a. This is completely irrefutable as Christ is directly quoting from these New Covenant texts in John 6:45a to support what he stated in verse 44.

Finally, the very same Greek term translated "all" in verse 45a in the New Covenant text restricted to "thy children" is the very exact same Greek term translated "every man" in verse 45b where "heard....learned of the Father" is snyonomous with "taught of God" in verse 45a. Thus "ALL" taught/drawn equal "children of God" by Old Testament quotation and it cannot be denied that "ALL.......thy children" both heard and learned and thus come to Christ - Hence. "all" given equals all drawn by the Father because the "all" is restricted to "thy children" under the new covenant context.

Those who have ears to hear and eyes to see can see this easily and clearly and those who reject this can only do so by either ignoring, perverting or changing the words, quotations, and context.

 

[convicted1]

I don't think they have. Certainly most of the saints before the time of Christ never heard the name "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ of Nazareth" etc.

It is not the "information packet" -- it is the Holy Spirit that saves which is why we have the statement in Rom 2:13-16 about those who are saved who never got the info packet.

in Christ,

Bob

Okay, now explain to me how that not everyone who is born into this world and from birth------>death never hear of this Man Jesus Christ, yet He will draw all w/o exception? Yes, the gospel goes out into all the world to be proclained. Yet, only the sheep hear it joyfully. How then can Jesus draw someone that doesn't know He even exists, when it states differently in Romans 10:14?

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

 

[convicted1]

The biggest misconception about the gospel, imo, is the target being aimed at. One side says the call goes world wide, to any and all, and leaves no one out. The other side says it's also world wide, but to bring the sheep out from the goats. I believe the latter to be the true positionsmilewinkgrin: :thumbsup, and here's why.

Even those of the opposing view admit that not everyone ever born will hear the name of Jesus Christ in their life from birth----->death. They will even admit that they can't believe in someone they know nothing about....and I agree with that(Romans 10). Now, if some die never knowing that Jesus Christ ever existed, and according to their view that they can't believe in Jesus since they've never heard of Him, then how can John 12:32 mean "every single person that has lived since His ascension"? It can't, and their own beliefs thwart them and their belief that God did draw everyone w/o exception.

The gospel is a call that brings the sheep out from the goats. Here is what Jesus stated in John 15:19: "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." Then Peter confirms this later on in 2 Peter 2:9-10: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." God has a chosen generation from the first Adam until the last sheep is gathered into the sheepfold. Not one of them will suffer the eternal punishment in the lake of fire.


Now the gospel to the goats is needful, because it only confirms their non-existant(sp?) walk with God, which is something they've never had, never will have, and will never desire to have a walk with Him. It only confirms their distain for God and His work. Paul wrote this in 1 Cor. 1:18: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." They want nothing to do with it. They have no desire to "be ye reconciled to God". The gospel is sent to them, yet they shun it. It's solely their fault, and not God's, for rejecting it. It only seals their eternal state. Then in 1 Cor. 1:21, Paul stated this: "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." The gospel calls the sheep from amongst the goats. It confirms, it seals both their eternal states. One to everlasting joy, the other to everlasting torment and shame.

This is the third time I have bumped this to get a response to it. I think it is quite sound, and I would like for someone to honor me with their rebuttal. Thanks in advance. :thumbs:

 

[Winman]

This is the third time I have bumped this to get a response to it. I think it is quite sound, and I would like for someone to honor me with their rebuttal. Thanks in advance. :thumbs:

Willis, I will be honest, I do not know how God will deal with persons who have never heard the gospel. That said, I don't believe you can simply assume God doesn't care about them and that they are goats. That is pure assumption on your part.

You can't build doctrine on what you do not know. That is a recipe for disaster, but that seems to be what you want to do. The scriptures plainly tell us to go and and tell every creature the gospel, so God wants everyone to hear it and be saved. I do not buy this Calvinist view that God tells people to damn them. They are damned already.

Now, will everybody be saved? No. God knows this, and we know this. Nevertheless, we are told to tell everyone.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Now, some believe Jesus preached to those who never heard the gospel in Noah's day;

1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Now, I don't know if this is the correct interpretation for this verse, but it might be.

All I know is that God will do what is just and right. I don't know how he will deal with folks that never hear the gospel, but I believe the scriptures are clear that he is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[The Biblicist]

Moreover, the "all" in John 6:45a equals exactly the "all" in verse 37-39 because Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 RESTRICT that "all' to only those human beings actually saved under the New Covenant whether Jews or Gentiles as the direct application of Jeremiah 31:33-34 is to only those who partake of the New Covenant in Hebrews 8 and 10. This quotation defines "draw" to be synonomous with "taught" in verse 45a. This is completely irrefutable as Christ is directly quoting from these New Covenant texts in John 6:45a to support what he stated in verse 44.

Finally, the very same Greek term translated "all" in verse 45a in the New Covenant text restricted to "thy children" is the very exact same Greek term translated "every man" in verse 45b where "heard....learned of the Father" is snyonomous with "taught of God" in verse 45a. Thus "ALL" taught/drawn equal "children of God" by Old Testament quotation and it cannot be denied that "ALL.......thy children" both heard and learned and thus come to Christ - Hence. "all" given equals all drawn by the Father because the "all" is restricted to "thy children" under the new covenant context.

Those who have ears to hear and eyes to see can see this easily and clearly and those who reject this can only do so by either ignoring, perverting or changing the words, quotations, and context.

John 6:45 is claimed and interpreted by Arminians to be how the Father draws people. However, John 6:45a is a quotation from the plural "prophets" by Christ or Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 that deal specifically with the New Covenant people alone "thy children" or "the children of God" thus liminting the "all" in Jn. 6:45a to precisely the very same "all" in John 6:37-39.

Moreover, the quotation uses "taught" as a synonym for "draw" and the prophet explicitly states "all" are "taught/drawn" of God. Since the prophet has restricted "all" to only New Covenant children of God denies any fail to come that have been taught. Hence, again all drawn equals all taught as none of the covenant children of God fail to be drawn/taught.

The latter part of Jon 6:45 is where Christ again picks up and explains what the prophets mean by "taught of God" and that is they must have "heard" and have "learned" of the Father. This is not an either or but what "taught" necessarily means as it is impossible for anyone to be taught that does not hear and learn. The fact that the prophets are restricting the use of "all" to only NEW COVENANT CHILDREN OF GOD denies that any taught fail to come to Christ.

The only way Arminians can avoid all given equal all drawn and all drawn equal all given is to deny Christ explanatory prophet quotation refer to New Covenant children of God and thus "all" in the quotation includes those who are not of New Covenant children of God. However, the direct application of Jeremiah 31:33-34 by the writer of Hebrews to New Covenant children of God makes that impossible.

 

[Yeshua1]

Willis, I will be honest, I do not know how God will deal with persons who have never heard the gospel. That said, I don't believe you can simply assume God doesn't care about them and that they are goats. That is pure assumption on your part.

You can't build doctrine on what you do not know. That is a recipe for disaster, but that seems to be what you want to do. The scriptures plainly tell us to go and and tell every creature the gospel, so God wants everyone to hear it and be saved. I do not buy this Calvinist view that God tells people to damn them. They are damned already.

Now, will everybody be saved? No. God knows this, and we know this. Nevertheless, we are told to tell everyone.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Now, some believe Jesus preached to those who never heard the gospel in Noah's day;

1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Now, I don't know if this is the correct interpretation for this verse, but it might be.

All I know is that God will do what is just and right. I don't know how he will deal with folks that never hear the gospel, but I believe the scriptures are clear that he is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

well

All who have never heard are all lost/unsaved
All who have not herad will be judged by light they did receive
All God would know how they would have responded to Gospel if heard

Mine would be those whom God desires to save will somehow get the message!

 

[Winman]

John 6:45 is claimed and interpreted by Arminians to be how the Father draws people. However, John 6:45a is a quotation from the plural "prophets" by Christ or Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 that deal specifically with the New Covenant people alone "thy children" or "the children of God" thus liminting the "all" in Jn. 6:45a to precisely the very same "all" in John 6:37-39.

Moreover, the quotation uses "taught" as a synonym for "draw" and the prophet explicitly states "all" are "taught/drawn" of God. Since the prophet has restricted "all" to only New Covenant children of God denies any fail to come that have been taught. Hence, again all drawn equals all taught as none of the covenant children of God fail to be drawn/taught.

The latter part of Jon 6:45 is where Christ again picks up and explains what the prophets mean by "taught of God" and that is they must have "heard" and have "learned" of the Father. This is not an either or but what "taught" necessarily means as it is impossible for anyone to be taught that does not hear and learn. The fact that the prophets are restricting the use of "all" to only NEW COVENANT CHILDREN OF GOD denies that any taught fail to come to Christ.

The only way Arminians can avoid all given equal all drawn and all drawn equal all given is to deny Christ explanatory prophet quotation refer to New Covenant children of God and thus "all" in the quotation includes those who are not of New Covenant children of God. However, the direct application of Jeremiah 31:33-34 by the writer of Hebrews to New Covenant children of God makes that impossible.

He really thinks it went in, but it was just another air-ball.

 

[Yeshua1]

He really thinks it went in, but it was just another air-ball.

have to give you credit, at least, while you cannot refute him from tjhe Bible itself, least have a sense of humour about it!

 

[The Biblicist]

have to give you credit, at least, while you cannot refute him from tjhe Bible itself, least have a sense of humour about it!

Are you saying he is shooting air balls?:laugh:

 

[Yeshua1]

Are you saying he is shooting air balls?:laugh:

well, lets just say that he is "missing the mark!"

 

[convicted1]

Willis, I will be honest, I do not know how God will deal with persons who have never heard the gospel. That said, I don't believe you can simply assume God doesn't care about them and that they are goats. That is pure assumption on your part.

You can't build doctrine on what you do not know. That is a recipe for disaster, but that seems to be what you want to do. The scriptures plainly tell us to go and and tell every creature the gospel, so God wants everyone to hear it and be saved. I do not buy this Calvinist view that God tells people to damn them. They are damned already.

Now, will everybody be saved? No. God knows this, and we know this. Nevertheless, we are told to tell everyone.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Now, some believe Jesus preached to those who never heard the gospel in Noah's day;

1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Now, I don't know if this is the correct interpretation for this verse, but it might be.

All I know is that God will do what is just and right. I don't know how he will deal with folks that never hear the gospel, but I believe the scriptures are clear that he is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Brother, I believe with everything that is in me that you're a man of integrity, not in a boasting way, but always doing and believeing what the bible says about are certain topic, such as election/predestination. I think deep down inside of you, you know the answer and have a hard time accepting it. Look, if you think my theological shift was easy, think again. I came to these conclusions through prayer, study, and to a certain extent, grief. But I do know that not one person in hell will be there by mistake, the same can be said for those who make it to heaven. Shall not the God of the earth do right? Yessiree!!

 

[Winman]

Brother, I believe with everything that is in me that you're a man of integrity, not in a boasting way, but always doing and believeing what the bible says about are certain topic, such as election/predestination. I think deep down inside of you, you know the answer and have a hard time accepting it. Look, if you think my theological shift was easy, think again. I came to these conclusions through prayer, study, and to a certain extent, grief. But I do know that not one person in hell will be there by mistake, the same can be said for those who make it to heaven. Shall not the God of the earth do right? Yessiree!!

Willis, if you are suggesting that deep down I believe Calvinism is true, then you do not know me at all. I believe with all my heart that Calvinism is tremendous error, and NOT what the scriptures are teaching. I have provided probably hundreds of scriptures over the past 4 years that utterly refutes Calvinism.

I find it difficult to believe that anybody who has spent time reading the Bible can believe Calvinism. you run into problems on every page.

I believe the reason people believe Calvinism is because they truly do not know the scriptures and have been indoctrinated by Reformed teachers who pull scripture out of context to prop up Calvinism, at the same time completely ignoring literally HUNDREDS of verses that easily refute it. Calvinism must constantly redefine words to work, and often argue that scripture does not mean what it plainly and simply says.

I think you need to do a WHOLE LOT MORE praying Willis.

 

[convicted1]

Willis, if you are suggesting that deep down I believe Calvinism is true, then you do not know me at all. I believe with all my heart that Calvinism is tremendous error, and NOT what the scriptures are teaching. I have provided probably hundreds of scriptures over the past 4 years that utterly refutes Calvinism.

I find it difficult to believe that anybody who has spent time reading the Bible can believe Calvinism. you run into problems on every page.

I believe the reason people believe Calvinism is because they truly do not know the scriptures and have been indoctrinated by Reformed teachers who pull scripture out of context to prop up Calvinism, at the same time completely ignoring literally HUNDREDS of verses that easily refute it. Calvinism must constantly redefine words to work, and often argue that scripture does not mean what it plainly and simply says.

I think you need to do a WHOLE LOT MORE praying Willis.

No Brother, that's not what I meant at all. I was referencing your quote that you honestly didn't know how God will deal with those who never heard of Jesus or His gospel. I think deep down inside of you you know how he'll deal with them. The word is replete...if that's the correct word...in how He will deal with them.

Sorry about causing the confusion by not being clearer in my previous post.

 

[convicted1]

And yes, I always need more prayer. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

Willis, if you are suggesting that deep down I believe Calvinism is true, then you do not know me at all. I believe with all my heart that Calvinism is tremendous error, and NOT what the scriptures are teaching. I have provided probably hundreds of scriptures over the past 4 years that utterly refutes Calvinism.

I find it difficult to believe that anybody who has spent time reading the Bible can believe Calvinism. you run into problems on every page.

I believe the reason people believe Calvinism is because they truly do not know the scriptures and have been indoctrinated by Reformed teachers who pull scripture out of context to prop up Calvinism, at the same time completely ignoring literally HUNDREDS of verses that easily refute it. Calvinism must constantly redefine words to work, and often argue that scripture does not mean what it plainly and simply says.

I think you need to do a WHOLE LOT MORE praying Willis.

One more thing; I was once where you are right now. I knew calvinism was patently false. I knew I had it by the "short hairs". I called it a "doctrine of devils" many, many times. I believe God showed me I was wrong. I have always been receptive to change...not saying you aren't either...and when I heard preachers say "I chose Jesus", I'd amen it, yet something deep inside me cringed. I know we accept Jesus, yet He has to do His work first. According to the bible, not everyone will hear about Him, yet pay for it anyways.

 

[Winman]

One more thing; I was once where you are right now. I knew calvinism was patently false. I knew I had it by the "short hairs". I called it a "doctrine of devils" many, many times. I believe God showed me I was wrong. I have always been receptive to change...not saying you aren't either...and when I heard preachers say "I chose Jesus", I'd amen it, yet something deep inside me cringed. I know we accept Jesus, yet He has to do His work first. According to the bible, not everyone will hear about Him, yet pay for it anyways.

Willis, you have never been where I am.

You say you have a problem saying you chose Jesus. Do you have the same problem saying you love Jesus? I bet you would say that in a heartbeat, and you should. Oh, you will say you love him because he first loved you. And that is EXACTLY correct.

1 Jhn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

We love Jesus because he first loved us. Even Calvinists can agree with this scripture. Well Willis, election is the same. We chose Jesus because he first chose us. You couldn't choose Jesus unless he came and died on the cross for your sins and rose from the dead. And you couldn't choose Jesus unless he sent someone, maybe a preacher, maybe a friend, maybe a family member, but Jesus sent someone to tell you he died for you and rose from the dead, and that if you would trust him, he would save you.

So you see Willis, he chose you first. And now you must choose him. Jesus does not force himself on anyone, he does not break the door down, he does not change your will. You must open the door and invite him in. And if you do he will come in, he has been waiting all along, he chose you first.

But you MUST choose him.

Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

 

[convicted1]

Willis, you have never been where I am.

You say you have a problem saying you chose Jesus. Do you have the same problem saying you love Jesus? I bet you would say that in a heartbeat, and you should. Oh, you will say you love him because he first loved you. And that is EXACTLY correct.

1 Jhn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

We love Jesus because he first loved us. Even Calvinists can agree with this scripture. Well Willis, election is the same. We chose Jesus because he first chose us. You couldn't choose Jesus unless he came and died on the cross for your sins and rose from the dead. And you couldn't choose Jesus unless he sent someone, maybe a preacher, maybe a friend, maybe a family member, but Jesus sent someone to tell you he died for you and rose from the dead, and that if you would trust him, he would save you.

So you see Willis, he chose you first. And now you must choose him. Jesus does not force himself on anyone, he does not break the door down, he does not change your will. You must open the door and invite him in. And if you do he will come in, he has been waiting all along, he chose you first.

But you MUST choose him.

Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

I agree we choose Him, too. In a marriage...Christ and the bride, His body, His church, are married to each other. There has to be two "yesses" in any marriage. But, Christ didn't enter into a marriage with everyone, but only His bride. He even loved her so much He gave His life for her.

Not everyone is told the good news of Jesus Christ, Brother winman. They will perish w/o Law. They were never in the intended covenant with Jesus Christ...and never will...

 

[Winman]

I agree we choose Him, too. In a marriage...Christ and the bride, His body, His church, are married to each other. There has to be two "yesses" in any marriage. But, Christ didn't enter into a marriage with everyone, but only His bride. He even loved her so much He gave His life for her.

Not everyone is told the good news of Jesus Christ, Brother winman. They will perish w/o Law. They were never in the intended covenant with Jesus Christ...and never will...

Real simple question for you Willis, if Jesus did not die for everyone, then how do you know he died for you?

How do you know you are one of the elect Willis?