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Don't legalize Drugs...

Inspector Javert

Active Member
One of my favourite columnists is Theodore Dalrymple:
Retired Prison and Hospital Psychiatrist, and overall expert on treating druggies and their victims. Great column he writes here:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/7_2_a1.html




For those who don't want to read a column this long...some snippets which, I think, sum up many of his arguments well:

Even the legalizers’ argument that permitting the purchase and use of drugs as freely as Milton Friedman suggests will necessarily result in less governmental and other official interference in our lives doesn’t stand up. To the contrary, if the use of narcotics and stimulants were to become virtually universal, as is by no means impossible, the number of situations in which compulsory checks upon people would have to be carried out, for reasons of public safety, would increase enormously. Pharmacies, banks, schools, hospitals—indeed, all organizations dealing with the public—might feel obliged to check regularly and randomly on the drug consumption of their employees. The general use of such drugs would increase the locus standi of innumerable agencies, public and private, to interfere in our lives; and freedom from interference, far from having increased, would have drastically shrunk.

...
many others—even policemen—have said that “the war on drugs is lost.” But to demand a yes or no answer to the question “Is the war against drugs being won?” is like demanding a yes or no answer to the question “Have you stopped beating your wife yet?” Never can an unimaginative and fundamentally stupid metaphor have exerted a more baleful effect upon proper thought.[/U]
Let us ask whether medicine is winning the war against death





This being the case, not all freedoms are equal, and neither are all limitations of freedom: some are serious and some trivial. The freedom we cherish—or should cherish—is not merely that of satisfying our appetites, whatever they happen to be. We are not Dickensian Harold Skimpoles, exclaiming in protest that “Even the butterflies are free!” We are not children who chafe at restrictions because they are restrictions. And we even recognize the apparent paradox that some limitations to our freedoms have the consequence of making us freer overall. The freest man is not the one who slavishly follows his appetites and desires throughout his life—as all too many of my patients have discovered to their cost.

It is of course true, but only trivially so, that the present illegality of drugs is the cause of the criminality surrounding their distribution. Likewise, it is the illegality of stealing cars that creates car thieves. In fact, the ultimate cause of all criminality is law. As far as I am aware, no one has ever suggested that law should therefore be abandoned. Moreover, the impossibility of winning the “war” against theft, burglary, robbery, and fraud has never been used as an argument that these categories of crime should be abandoned. And so long as the demand for material goods outstrips supply, people will be tempted to commit criminal acts against the owners of property. This is not an argument, in my view, against private property or in favor of the common ownership of all goods. It does suggest, however, that we shall need a police force for a long time to come.
 

Gina B

Active Member
That is a very well written article.

However...I disagree with the end. A police force isn't what will help with drug addiction.

May as well legalize it as depend on THAT.

What's going on is the same thing that happened in history. History repeating itself. Addiction happening, leaders starting to get addiction, police and higher ups taking their cut. The only way that will end will be the same way opium addiction ended in China.
But first, the people have to WANT it. They have to say ENOUGH. They have to quit being dependent on the government for their needs, because the government is not capable of providing for every need. It takes everyone on this. The government has made people in this country think they cannot handle problems without them. That is not true. Especially if the people would realize that police officers are humans too, and a percentage of officers also struggle with drug use.
It will take everyone.
But if that won't happen, stop the free ride for the corrupt and the polluted drugs...by making them legal. Maybe that's the only thing that will lead to a true revolution and make people realize it needs to end.

(yes, I know I say things that sound crazy, mkay? :) )
 

prophet

Active Member
Site Supporter
That is a very well written article.

However...I disagree with the end. A police force isn't what will help with drug addiction.

May as well legalize it as depend on THAT.

What's going on is the same thing that happened in history. History repeating itself. Addiction happening, leaders starting to get addiction, police and higher ups taking their cut. The only way that will end will be the same way opium addiction ended in China.
But first, the people have to WANT it. They have to say ENOUGH. They have to quit being dependent on the government for their needs, because the government is not capable of providing for every need. It takes everyone on this. The government has made people in this country think they cannot handle problems without them. That is not true. Especially if the people would realize that police officers are humans too, and a percentage of officers also struggle with drug use.
It will take everyone.
But if that won't happen, stop the free ride for the corrupt and the polluted drugs...by making them legal. Maybe that's the only thing that will lead to a true revolution and make people realize it needs to end.

(yes, I know I say things that sound crazy, mkay? :) )

They don't sound crazy to me.

BTW, if we all had our own businesses, rather than mooching off of someone else's financial risk
(Job) , like farms for instance, we would be to busy for addiction.
 

poncho

Well-Known Member
Not long ago it was reported that Mexican farmers and drug cartels are giving up on producing and trading in marijuana because there is no money in it for them anymore.

What do they blame the loss of revenue on? Legalization in the US.

God forbid they lose the revenues now generated through producing and trading in cocaine and heroin by legalization in the US.

You want to keep these drugs cheap and easy to get in the US?

Then keep them illegal.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I say put a border fence up along the California border, put everyone who wants to smoke pot in California, and things will take care of itself. It certainly would work to get rid of much of the liberalism in this country.
 

poncho

Well-Known Member
Why stop with California? Why not fence off New York too? And Vermont? Why not build boundaries between all of us?
 

Inspector Javert

Active Member
Not long ago it was reported that Mexican farmers and drug cartels are giving up on producing and trading in marijuana because there is no money in it for them anymore.

What do they blame the loss of revenue on? Legalization in the US.

God forbid they lose the revenues now generated through producing and trading in cocaine and heroin by legalization in the US.

You want to keep these drugs cheap and easy to get in the US?

Then keep them illegal.

:laugh::laugh:

1.) I do appreciate your faith in the honest reporting of Mexican drug cartels
2.) That is frankly stupid on it's face.

How much of the demand lives in places where marijuana is legal?

Let's see, we've got Colorado.....and Colorado......and...

That's just about it.

What percentage of the U.S. market for marijuana do you think resides in places where it is now LEGAL?? maybe 10%??

And how quickly, pray tell, do you think the market has reacted on the supply side for the extremely new legalization laws and in such small segments of the overall market?

You are taking that as gospel without even bothering to think it through...There's enough market in the 40 something contiguous States which have no legal use of the drug for states like Colorado, Oregon and Washington to do as they will, and there will remain a perfectly large market for it to be profitable.

There may be stiff competition on the supply side...and enough local pot-growing in the U.S. to render it un-profitable recently, but you sound absolutely DESPERATE to believe a report like this....

Straight from the mouths of a Mexican drug Cartel. :laugh:

I have Ocean-front property in Arizona on sale Poncho....you should take a look at it.
 

Inspector Javert

Active Member
Why stop with California? Why not fence off New York too? And Vermont? Why not build boundaries between all of us?

I could go along with that too.

New York, Kalifornia, Taxacheusettes....and a few others.

Oh, wait...you were trying to be sarcastic weren't you. N.V.M.
 

poncho

Well-Known Member
:laugh::laugh:

1.) I do appreciate your faith in the honest reporting of Mexican drug cartels
2.) That is frankly stupid on it's face.

How much of the demand lives in places where marijuana is legal?

Let's see, we've got Colorado.....and Colorado......and...

That's just about it.

What percentage of the U.S. market for marijuana do you think resides in places where it is now LEGAL?? maybe 10%??

And how quickly, pray tell, do you think the market has reacted on the supply side for the extremely new legalization laws and in such small segments of the overall market?

You are taking that as gospel without even bothering to think it through...There's enough market in the 40 something contiguous States which have no legal use of the drug for states like Colorado, Oregon and Washington to do as they will, and there will remain a perfectly large market for it to be profitable.

There may be stiff competition on the supply side...and enough local pot-growing in the U.S. to render it un-profitable recently, but you sound absolutely DESPERATE to believe a report like this....

Straight from the mouths of a Mexican drug Cartel. :laugh:

I have Ocean-front property in Arizona on sale Poncho....you should take a look at it.

40 years we've "waged a war against drugs" and I can go down the street and score just about any drug there is.

My but your approach is sooooo successful. :rolleyes:

You know what Einstein said right? "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result."

Face it your way isn't working. It never has in all of history and it never will.

But don't let that keep you from trying okay?
 

Inspector Javert

Active Member
40 years we've "waged a war against drugs" and I can go down the street and score just about any drug there is.
Let me ask you the same questions I asked someone else a second ago:

Are we "winning the war" on theft?
Are we "winning the war" on murder?
Are we "winning the war" on fraud?
Are we "winning the war" on speeding?

How exactly do you define "winning the war"?
Complete eradication?
100% success?
What is the concrete objective standard by which we can truly measure a "victory" in the war on drugs?

Will they surrender to us aboard the U.S.S. Missouri?

Guess we've lost the "war" on crime in general.

We should legalize all heretofore illegal activities that we haven't "won the war" on then I imagine.
My but your approach is sooooo successful. :rolleyes:
Thousands of years of history has shown that to illegalize something is a very successful way of lessenning it and rendering it less common. It doesn't eradicate it completely.....but it definitely renders it less common.
Why should illicit drug use be inherently different?
You know what Einstein said right? "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result."

Face it your way isn't working. It never has in all of history and it never will.
"MY WAY"....has not "worked" against rape and murder and theft in "all of history" either....Poncho...
"YOUR WAY" is called surrender.
But don't let that keep you from trying okay?
I won't.

I think pot-head logic is the logic of Pot-heads.
I don't consider it particularly enlightening, so, I will, thank you.
 

Gina B

Active Member
That's not quite accurate - twenty states have legalized medical marijuana, and don't think that doesn't contribute significantly to demand.
When I lived in one of those states, I *could* have received a medical card in a heartbeat. Probably could have without a reason - from what I heard, they were easy to obtain if you saw the "right one."
I only chose not to because my fellow believers cannot handle the concept that it is more safe for me to use than the medications that are killing my eyes and making me bleed from my kidneys and consider it eeevil. The things I do for you guys...:laugh:
 

poncho

Well-Known Member
Let me ask you the same questions I asked someone else a second ago:

Are we "winning the war" on theft?
Are we "winning the war" on murder?
Are we "winning the war" on fraud?
Are we "winning the war" on speeding?

How exactly do you define "winning the war"?
Complete eradication?
100% success?
What is the concrete objective standard by which we can truly measure a "victory" in the war on drugs?

Will they surrender to us aboard the U.S.S. Missouri?

Guess we've lost the "war" on crime in general.

We should legalize all heretofore illegal activities that we haven't "won the war" on then I imagine.

Thousands of years of history has shown that to illegalize something is a very successful way of lessenning it and rendering it less common. It doesn't eradicate it completely.....but it definitely renders it less common.
Why should illicit drug use be inherently different?

"MY WAY"....has not "worked" against rape and murder and theft in "all of history" either....Poncho...
"YOUR WAY" is called surrender.

I won't.

I think pot-head logic is the logic of Pot-heads.
I don't consider it particularly enlightening, so, I will, thank you.

"I think pot-head logic is the logic of Pot-heads."

There you have it. Your own words have given you away. You aren't motivated by empathy for others, you're motivated by your prejudice against others.

How Christ like.

What some people won't do to puff themselves up in their own eyes.

And he spoke this parable to certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank you, that I am not as other men are, extortionists, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes to heaven, but smote on his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalts himself shall be abased; and he that humbles himself shall be exalted.
 
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Inspector Javert

Active Member
There you have it. Your own words have given you away. You aren't motivated by empathy for others, you're motivated by your prejudice against others.

How very Christ like.

That's your response?
"You sound like a meany-head.....whereas I'm the nice guy"

Congratulations, you've never sounded MORE Like a liberal or a Communist as you do right now.

You don't think I have compassion or empathy for others?
Do you not think the writer of the article I posted (who spent his life treating drug addicts among other things) has genuine concern or empathy?

Obviously, you didn't bother to read the article.

If I didn't care whatsoever, I wouldn't bother with the debate at all. Neither would you.
 

poncho

Well-Known Member
That's your response?
"You sound like a meany-head.....whereas I'm the nice guy"

Congratulations, you've never sounded MORE Like a liberal or a Communist as you do right now.

You don't think I have compassion or empathy for others?
Do you not think the writer of the article I posted (who spent his life treating drug addicts among other things) has genuine concern or empathy?

Obviously, you didn't bother to read the article.

If I didn't care whatsoever, I wouldn't bother with the debate at all. Neither would you.

Calling me a communist and a liberal, that's your response?

Obviously we have a difference of opinion here. I don't believe big intrusive government is the answer. Evidently you do. Communists and liberals love big intrusive government I don't, so between the two of us I'd say you're closer to being a communist and liberal than I am.

I know, I know individual liberty = anarchy. :rolleyes:

BTW crimes like murder, rape and theft involve aggression against another. The proper role of government is to protect our liberties and us from others who would do us harm. Not to protect us from harming ourselves by limiting our liberties.

If the proper role of government is as you seem to be claiming, to protect us from harming ourselves by limiting our liberties then forks and knives should be outlawed straight away as well as rope, sugary snacks, watching to much tv and yes alcohol. All of these and a million other things can be used to do ourselves harm.

If we're going to be consistent in our belief that government is there to protect us from harming ourselves shouldn't we make everything that we can use to harm ourselves illegal? Why stop at drugs?

Sounds to me like there's a wee bit of Michael Bloomberg in you brother.
 
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Gina B

Active Member
Rope sugary snacks? I just happen to have a nerds rope sitting here!

Sorry, you guys can continue on, just saying - that was an odd thing to say, and more odd that I happen to have this particular candy...
 

prophet

Active Member
Site Supporter
Let me ask you the same questions I asked someone else a second ago:

Are we "winning the war" on theft?
Are we "winning the war" on murder?
Are we "winning the war" on fraud?
Are we "winning the war" on speeding?

How exactly do you define "winning the war"?
Complete eradication?
100% success?
What is the concrete objective standard by which we can truly measure a "victory" in the war on drugs?

Will they surrender to us aboard the U.S.S. Missouri?

Guess we've lost the "war" on crime in general.

We should legalize all heretofore illegal activities that we haven't "won the war" on then I imagine.

Thousands of years of history has shown that to illegalize something is a very successful way of lessenning it and rendering it less common. It doesn't eradicate it completely.....but it definitely renders it less common.
Why should illicit drug use be inherently different?

"MY WAY"....has not "worked" against rape and murder and theft in "all of history" either....Poncho...
"YOUR WAY" is called surrender.

I won't.

I think pot-head logic is the logic of Pot-heads.
I don't consider it particularly enlightening, so, I will, thank you.

Logical fallacy alert.

Since we are innocent until proven guilty, in Liberty, there is no legal procedure for prevention of crimes.

There is no "war on murder", only prosecution of murderers.

The law isn't after you, until you break it.

Please don't feel you have to respond to this post, it was not a personal attack. They have been training you to think this way, to gather recruits for the End.
 

poncho

Well-Known Member
The Bible tell us to be a liberal.

The bible tells us to love our neighbor it doesn't tell us look down on them when they have a personal problem.

The bible also tells us not to be hypocrites yet looking around this board few Christians have taken that to heart.
 

Inspector Javert

Active Member
Logical fallacy alert.

Since we are innocent until proven guilty, in Liberty, there is no legal procedure for prevention of crimes.

There is no "war on murder", only prosecution of murderers.

The law isn't after you, until you break it.

Please don't feel you have to respond to this post, it was not a personal attack. They have been training you to think this way, to gather recruits for the End.

I'm not seeing the logical fallacy:

This has nothing to do with innocent until proven guilty. I think you must be misunderstanding something I said here.
If it is illegal to posses or sell illicit drugs, than you are innocent of any crime unless and until you are proven to have possessed or distributed illicit drugs.

So, you are quite correct.
There is no "War on drugs" either. That's the point I'm making...
Only prosecutions of drug dealers and possessors.
 

Inspector Javert

Active Member
Calling me a communist and a liberal, that's your response?
I didn't call you either a communist or a liberal...
Put down the joint and read what I ACTUALLY said.
Obviously we have a difference of opinion here. I don't believe big intrusive government is the answer. Evidently you do.
I don't believe in "big intrusive" government any more than you do...
But I'm not a Libertine either.
There is a happy medium between the two.
I know, I know individual liberty = anarchy. :rolleyes:
You do not believe in complete and full-fledged "individual liberty".
You yourself would enforce limitations upon "individual liberty".

Would you let someone possess or distribute child pornography?
If not...
You know then that there are limits on "individual liberty".....and you would use the force of Law to limit them. Just as any sane person would.
BTW crimes like murder, rape and theft involve aggression against another. The proper role of government is to protect our liberties and us from others who would do us harm. Not to protect us from harming ourselves by limiting our liberties.
I can agree with that....
But I am not foolish enough to think that illicit drug sales and their use are a solitary crime.

I know better.
It is FAR from victimless....
FAR from it.
If the proper role of government is as you seem to be claiming, to protect us from harming ourselves by limiting our liberties then forks and knives should be outlawed straight away as well as rope, sugary snacks, watching to much tv and yes alcohol. All of these and a million other things can be used to do ourselves harm.
huh? :confused:
I don't know if the term "non-sequitor" is a strong enough term for this.
If we're going to be consistent in our belief that government is there to protect us from harming ourselves shouldn't we make everything that we can use to harm ourselves illegal? Why stop at drugs?
I don't think that....

I don't believe that a society stoned on heroin is one with no victims and a million happy freedom-loving citizens all collectively doing one another and their wives and children no harm whatsoever.

You think drug-use is a victimless crime.
I think that's stupid.
Sounds to me like there's a wee bit of Michael Bloomberg in you brother.

You seem reticent to distinguish between overly-large sodas, trans-fats and opiates....
Sane people know the difference.
 
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