Featured Why do you sin?

Sometimes they seem to be spoken of interchangeably, but there is enough evidence to demonstrate they are different one from another.
The spirit is the spiritual part of man.
The soul is the emotional part of man, also called the mind and heart.
Heb.4:12 says:
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,
--It divides the soul and spirit. Obviously they can be divided.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
--Here all three are mentioned: spirit, soul and body are mentioned.

The soul and mind are the same.

You are perilously close to the gnostic teaching of the flesh being evil and the spirit being good. This is not right. It is not "matter" (or flesh) that is inherently evil. Our flesh is simply made up of chemicals.
Here is the sum total of our body, our flesh:

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Now which of the above is evil? Is the oxygen, the carbon? the nitrogen?
Which one is evil? The above is what our body (sarx) or flesh is made of. It is just a piece of meat with some blood vessels running through it, isn't it? There is nothing evil in it. [/FONT]

The elements of the periodic table cannot tug at your mind to do anything. Carbon and nitrogen are not inherently evil or sinful. Where do you get that from?

 

As I'm sure you know, nobody in our neck of the woods is particularly safe from natural calamity this time of year. Let's keep each other in prayer. I appreciate you, brother.

 

Romans 8:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


DHK I agree with depravity, but how do you see these scripture with your view of the flesh in your last post?

What is the inner man that wants to do good?

Here is some more scripture to think about.

It seems to me that it is a living being apart of us with desires that we have to avoid if it causes us to sin.


Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 10:3
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

 

Who on earth did you write that useless diatribe to? I think you went out in left field and started chasing a rabbit


[/QUOTE]The elements of the periodic table cannot tug at your mind to do anything. Carbon and nitrogen are not inherently evil or sinful. Where do you get that from?[/QUOTE]

Have you got a scripture verse you can quote to support that? Or do you accept secular science as authoritative on spiritual issues?

The bible I read says that we have a body of death, a body that is sown in weakness, corruption, dishonor, and a whole host of other descriptors which tell us that it is sinful to the core, and it is going to die because of such


And for you to parade around throwing (almost) charges of heresy, while denying that Jesus had a body just like ours, and now has a body just like ours will be...now that isn't (almost) heresy, that is outright heresy.

If you believe He was not made like His brethren in all things (Hebrews 2:14-17, Romans 8:3, et al), then you are the one treading close to Gnosticism by embracing a teaching that Christ only "appeared" to be in the flesh like us.

That means you have embraced a different Christ from scripture, one who cannot relate to our present struggles, and who was not tempted in all points. One who was not raised as first fruits, but would have been raised to a totally unique glory that He did not share with His brethren (Heb 2:9-10)


I can't let you off the hook on this one. You have a big mess to clean up here, for you have invented your own Christ, and I refuse to stand idly by and watch you make a mockery of the literal, physical, just-like-ours body of Christ as portrayed in scripture

 

In this passage verse 25 is the key. No man can serve two masters. We are constantly admonished to submit our minds to serve the law of God.

The "flesh" is not "meat" but the desires of the flesh.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
--What is the flesh?
There is the lust of the flesh; the lust of the eyes; the pride of life. These are all actions of a depraved mind. The mind controls the body for good or for evil. The hand in itself is used for good or for evil. It is the mind or heart that controls those hands to be clasped in prayer or to be clenched as fists.

Jesus said:
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
--The heart is the mind, the soul, the heart. It is inherently evil.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
--The depravity of man again. It is our heart, soul, mind.
It is "accustomed to doing evil" and will do evil unless it is regenerated by the Lord.

It is the desires of the flesh that wars against the desires of the Spirit. Periodic elements have no interest in anything. But the unsaved mind is inherently evil. It desires to do evil things, as Jesus said. "Out of the heart proceeds, evil thoughts, murders, etc."

The unsaved are dead, meaning separated from God (Eph.2:1), and need to be reconciled to God. Therefore God has given us the ministry of reconciliation.

The desires come from the mind. It is a carnal war. But the unsaved carnal mind uses worldly weapons. We use spiritual weapons because our new nature has given us "new weapons" to overcome the enemy.

2Co 10:3-5
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

The last clause is not conditional but qualitative. IOW we believe in eternal security so the verse would be true without the clause. It tells us that those who are in Christ Jesus are those who are walking after the Spirit, and not walking after the flesh or the desires of the flesh, which Paul has described in chapter seven. (The things that I do, I don't want to do; the things I don't want to do those things I do.)

Same as above--qualitative. Salvation is not conditional.

This is a contrast between the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit. We can only serve one master. Even as a Christian if we live for the world, our works will be of the world (fleshly), but if we live according to the Spirit our fruit will be Spiritual fruit.

 

True science does not contradict the Bible.
The law of biogenesis states that life begets life. There is no life in a rock, and a rock will never beget life. Life comes from a living organism.
Look at Scripture:
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--When the spirit separates from the body then one is dead. That is death. It is separation--the spirit departs from the body. Secular science says somewhat of the same thing. When the life goes out of the body he is dead. It has always been that way. The corpse is neither good nor bad. It is just flesh.

The body you have is very much alive. When it comes to spiritual things you are to treat your body as dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto righteousness. It is not dead.
Paul said: "I die daily." He was not dead, but every day put himself to death by saying no to sin, to self, to the world, to things that would take him off the course from serving the Lord. No to himself and yes to God.

He said: "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ liveth in me. And the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me."

Jesus said: If any man shall come after me let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me.
What does it mean to "take up your cross"? The cross was a means of execution. That is how Christ and other criminals died. He was saying you must die, not once but every day.
Your flesh (sin nature) is very much alive. Put it to death--every day. Deny yourself, as Jesus said.

It wasn't "just like ours." It was similar to ours."
We have a sin nature; he didn't.
We were born of two parents; he was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin.
We had a natural birth; he had a miraculous birth.
We are human; he is God.
He is God incarnate. He came as God into this world using a body like ours but not exactly.

Yes, what does "all things" mean?

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
--It is not speaking of DNA, which the Hebrews knew nothing of. It was speaking of the fact that he was fully man as they were and suffered as they suffered, tempted in every way that they were. In that way he could understand their sufferings unlike the OT priests who never suffered the same way that they did. Understand the contrast that is being given here.

If Christ had a sin nature he was not God, and you are simply denying his deity, for there is no sin in God. He did not have sinful flesh. To think that he did is absurd. Our Savior was not sinful.

I don't believe Christ is a sinner, do you?

He is God come in the FLESH! He is fully God and fully man at the same time. He was made like unto us yet without sin and without a sin nature. To say that he had sin, a sinful nature, a depraved nature, or any such thing is blasphemous. I have no mess to clean up at all.
My Savior is the perfect sinless son of God who died on the cross for my sins, made an atonement for me because he was perfect without sin, without a sin nature. If you don't believe in that you cannot be saved.

1Pe 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
--The Just died for the unjust. But for some reason you don't believe he was completely "just"??

 

Yep, these folks who claim Jesus was different from us are the very persons we are warned about in 1 John 4:1-3;

1 Jhn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

DHK believes the sin nature is passed down from the father to his child, and that Jesus escaped a sin nature because he was born of a virgin, when the scriptures tell us that was a SIGN, not that Jesus would escape a sin nature.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

There is not one word here or anywhere else in scripture about a sin nature being passed down by the father. Being born of a virgin was a sign, it proved Jesus was the Son of God.

Jesus inherited DNA from David through Mary, just like we inherited DNA from our maternal grandfathers. He was called the "son of David". The Jews understood the Messiah had to be a physical descendant of David.

Mat 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

Even the angel that spoke to Mary said David was Jesus's father.

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

What DHK believes is nothing but the ancient Gnosticism the church battled, it is nothing but medieval superstition. Sin cannot be transferred from one person to another physically, sin is something you DO, not something you ARE. We are going to be judged for what we DO in this body, we are not judged because our body is corruptible.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

We are not born "dead in sin" that is, we are not condemned because we are born with a corruptible body, but we are judged for those things DONE in this body, whether good or bad.

 

That is quite the accusation. It may come back to bite you.

We harmonize this verse with many other Scriptures. Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit. Thus he was not "in Adam" as the rest of the entire human race. Being born of a virgin, and of the "seed of a woman" (Gen.3:15) instead of the "seed of a man" allowed him to escape the sin nature of man. A sinful Christ could not die for a sinful humanity. How is that even possible??

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. You have been denying orthodox doctrine for a long time now. There is nothing new in that. That is why you have no problem calling my doctrine "antichrist," but it is not I that stands outside of orthodoxy.
Romans 5:12-19 show very clearly that man has a sin nature.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
--By one man's sin death passed upon all men (mankind includes infants), so that all have sinned. All means all (except for Christ). Your unbelief here is astounding.

When the NT was written it was not written to Genetic scientists. :laugh:
Winman doesn't seem to understand this. Name me one person in the Bible (OT or NT) that understood about DNA. You can't do it!
DNA was discovered as early as 1868 but was not accepted by the medical community until 1952! And yet you want to fit this back into first century knowledge that they had about genealogies and ancestral lines. How ridiculous!!
The Jews knew that he was of the line of David because Mary was of the line and lineage of David. That was good enough for them. Those that were ignorant of the way and manner of his birth also knew that Joseph was of the line of David. Thus society as a whole could look at him and could say that he was the Son of David.
When Christ said claimed that he was the Son of David, the only "Son of David," it was a claim to deity. When the blind man called out "Son of David" have mercy upon me, he realized Christ was the Messiah, and therefore could heal him. It was his rightful heir to the throne of the coming Kingdom. He was being recognized as the King, the Messiah.

The Gnostics believed that matter (including flesh) was evil.
The Gnostics also believed that Christ did not appear in the flesh, hence the passage you quoted that those who hold to such a belief are antichrist.
But John immediately counters in the first few verses:

1 John 1:1-3 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

He has seen him; heard him, looked upon him, our hands have handled him, borne witness, etc. He is flesh. It was a refutation of Gnostic belief.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--There is other scripture you have forgotten about.

 

Oh, I don't think you are doing this on purpose, but that is what you are doing nevertheless. You are denying that Jesus truly came in the flesh. You are just parroting what other people taught you.

You misuse "in Adam" which is found only ONCE in all of scripture. This is speaking of physical death, not a sin nature.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Does this verse say we are all "born dead" in Adam? NOPE, it says in Adam all "die" which is FUTURE TENSE. This actually refutes your belief that we are born dead in Adam. You must be alive to die.

Besides this, it is speaking of physical death only, not spiritual. So, you are butchering the interpretation of this scripture when you falsely teach we are all born spiritually dead in Adam. Total error.

You are denying Jesus truly came in the flesh whether you admit it or not. And just because everyone else does it does not make a difference.

And Romans 9:11 exposes your interpretation as complete error, as Paul shows babies have not committed any sin, including Adam's sin.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Romans 5:12-19 cannot possibly be teaching that all men sinned "in Adam" in the garden, as Paul clearly says Jacob and Esau had done no evil. If all men sinned with Adam as you believe, Paul could not possibly say this.

So, your interpretation is easily refuted by scripture.

The Jews knew the Messiah had to be a direct physical descendant of David. That is why they exclaimed, "Is not this the son of David?"

You are in total denial.

Jesus was born with "the same" flesh and blood as us.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

What part of "the same" do you not understand??

You deny that Jesus was born of "the same" flesh as us, you claim he was born of another kind of flesh because he was conceived by the Spirit, but I have already shown you scripture that says he took part of "the same" flesh and blood as us.

And I have not forgotten Eph 2:1, that verse does not say we were born dead in sin, only that we were quickened when we were dead in trespasses and sins. It is when we knowingly commit sin that we spiritually die, we are not born that way. Babies are not sinners, they have committed no sin, Romans 9:11 proves that. Eph 2:1 does not support your false belief, you are reading that into scripture when it is not there.

Time will tell.

 

You know little. What others taught me I can hardly remember, not even their names. I have been teaching others for more than 30 years.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
--The "one man" was Adam. Or, did you overlook that fact? By Adam all men were made sinners. By Adam all have sinned.

"Your father is the devil and the lusts of your father you will do..."
--You born into the devil's family and hence you must be born again, into God's family.

Most of scripture teaches that we are born separated from God. You have miserably failed to prove otherwise.

That is a false accusation and you know it.
Jesus had a a body like ours. It was prone to thirst, hunger, to tire, suffer, to go through all the things that we do.
It was not prone to sin. He never though a single evil thought.
He never sinned once. He did not have sinful flesh as you say he had.

Look, you say infants are born innocent. Then you say once they sin they acquire somehow a sin nature. How did Christ acquire that sin nature if he never sinned? Yet you are adamant that he had sinful flesh like we do. You live and breathe a contradiction. You Savior--so-called fails as a Savior, for you conjure up someone who cannot meet the standards of a Savior, because he is sinful by nature of one who has sinful flesh. This is heresy.

One of your pet passages. It is taken out of context. It is speaking of Israel and predestination. It is a total non sequitor.

By taking Rom.9:11 out of context you have scripture contradicting scripture. You unbelief in Romans 5:12-19 is astounding. It teaches that we are born sinners and you won't accept it.

Mary was a direct descendent of David; so was Joseph and many others.
How did Peter and John, and then Nathaniel know that Christ was the Messiah? One of the factors was his descent from David--one of them. There was also the miracles that he did; the way he spoke--with authority not like the scribes, and other reasons. The fact that he had the right lineage was ONE reason.

He had a body LIKE unto ours. You fail to read all the scripture. The Bible does not contradict itself.
Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
--What part of "like unto his brethren" do you not understand?
The Bible does not contradict itself.

He was conceived of the Holy Ghost; made LIKE unto his brethren. Obviously he was not a sinner, made of sinful flesh like you and I.

Rom.9:11 proves nothing.
Read Eph.2:1-3. We are also called "children of wrath," "children of disobedience." Both Psalm 51:5 and 58:3 work against your beliefs.
You need to examine your position. Seriously.
What is the difference between the "flesh" of a corpse, and your "flesh"?
Please explain. Are they both sinful?

 

Yes, teaching error.

Not unconditionally or else this verse would teach Universalism. If you believe all men were unconditionally made sinners because of Adam's sin, you have to interpret the second half of the verse the same way and believe that all men are unconditionally made righteous by Jesus's obedience.

The correct interpretation is that all men are CONDITIONALLY made sinners when they sin as Adam sinned, and all men are conditionally made righteous when they believe as Jesus did.

But you will forever cling to error and teach it to others.

This does not prove we are born children of the devil. We must knowingly sin to become children of the devil. This is what is shown in the parable of the prodigal son when he "joined himself to a citizen of that country"

Luk 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

The prodigal son was not born lost, he was originally at home with his father. When he went out in sin he was joined to the citizen of that far country. I believe this represents when we become children of wrath or the devil.

I know you will disagree, no surprise at all.

Absolutely false and EASY to refute.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

If we were born separated from God, then it could not be said we are now RETURNED to Jesus. This easily refutes your false view.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

If we were born separated, dead in sin as you believe, then Jesus could not have said the prodigal son was alive AGAIN, but Jesus said it TWICE.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

In Romans 7 Paul describes when he learned the law and what sin was. He said the he was once ALIVE before the commandment came. If we are all born dead in sin, then Paul could not say this.

So your view is extremely EASY to refute with MUCH scripture. No problem.

You double-talk. You say Jesus had a body like ours, but then you contradict yourself and say he did not have a body like ours.

The body is not sinful in itself. The body has desires and lusts that tug and pull toward sin, but this is not sin. Jesus had a body with lusts and desires that pulled him toward sin just like us, but he never obeyed these lusts when they would have caused him to sin.

Our body is only "sinful" when we obey it to sin.

The body tempts us, but this is not sin. We sin when we act on that temptation and obey it. Jesus never obeyed his lusts and desires when they would have caused him to sin, but he felt them exactly like we do. When he was in the wilderness he was hungry, he wanted to eat just like we would. But he refused and obeyed his Father's will.

The scriptures say Jesus could be "touched" with the "feeling of our infirmities". His body was EXACTLY like ours in every way.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The scriptures say Jesus was tempted in "all points" as we are, but you teach Jesus was a sort of "superman" who did not feel and experience fleshly lusts.

You DO NOT teach Jesus had the same flesh as us. This is where you greatly err.

You are the one that says flesh is sinful. I do not believe we are born with sinful flesh, but our flesh becomes sinful when we give in to fleshly lusts and desires.

The word "sinful" is simply an adjective that describes someone who has sinned. Until you sin you cannot be sinful, just as you cannot be "obese" or "fat" until you gain too much weight.

I am quite aware Paul was speaking of election, nevertheless, he clearly told us that Jacob and Esau had done no evil in their mother's womb. They had NOT sinned with Adam in the garden as you falsely teach.

LOL, you assume that we are born guilty of Adam's sin. :laugh:

It never occurs to you that Original Sin is false doctrine. Goes right over your head.

He was a PHYSICAL descendant of David, he inherited David's DNA from Mary. The Jews understood he was a physical descendant. The angel that spoke to Mary called David Jesus's father.

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

You must constantly deny direct statements in scripture, you must deny that Jesus's was David's descendant because you believe the medieval superstition that sin is inherited physically.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


Even more scripture refuting your superstitious belief. Jesus was "made" of the "seed" of David. Couldn't be plainer, but you deny the truth over and over.

No, Jesus had "the same" flesh and blood as us. He was "made" of the "seed" of David. Jesus inherited David's (and Adam's) DNA from Mary his mother.

You can deny till the end of time, there is a volume of scripture that easily shows you are in error.

Believe what you want.

 

DHK,

This carnal mind, this heart is all apart of the flesh, but there is something else the inner being, the conscience that wants to do good something different than the flesh.

The flesh is all those elements i agree but it is living, but dead it needs outside sources to keep it alive like animals, vegetation has to be sacrificed for it to live it does not have life without stuff from outside of it self. It is not self sufficient. It need oxygen, it need food, water that it cannot produce from itself.

Our spirit is the same way it needs outside sources to keep it alive and it's food can only come from above and Jesus is the manna that come down from heaven for it to live. The words of Jesus is Spirit and life, so eat His word and drink in the life He lived we have witnesses of all that. It is hard for me to comprehend how the flesh lives, how atoms move, but they are living elements constantly moving in flux.

The flesh does influence the inner man that wants to do good, but until we fight this flesh with the Spirit which is the words of Jesus or before that the Law and the consequences, which brings death which we are all sinners and the wages of sin is death, to influence us we would continue down the path of the desires of the flesh.

In the end our war is not against flesh and blood (people), but the scheme's of the devil.

The devil wants us to continue following the flesh that leads to death and not the Spirit that leads to life eternal. The devil hate's man with a burning rage and wants us to continue doing what we are doing living in the darkness hiding our sin that we think we are getting away with, instead of coming into the light to Jesus and say I am a sinner that needs help to do what we cannot do without Him.

I do believe our flesh, which includes this carnal mind and heart, does influence us and is at war with the Spirit. We must deny the flesh's will to follow Jesus to have life.

I see those scripture different than you!

 

Our flesh tempts us, but we are not "sinful" until we actually sin, just as a person is not "obese" or "fat" until they actually gain too much weight.

Jesus's flesh tempted him in all points EXACTLY as ours does, but he never obeyed his flesh when it would have caused him to sin. And because he never sinned, he did not have "sinful" flesh. The word "sinful" is simply an adjective.

Man is more than flesh, we receive our spirit from God (Ecc 12:7). Our spirit can be completely willing to obey God.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

DHK says he was not taught by others that our flesh is sinful, but he once admitted he read a 400 page book on the subject. He got this doctrine from men, not the word of God.

 

Somewhat different, but I don't view your position as extreme.
Here is what the Scripture says:

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--We are to reckon ourselves to be dead to sin.
We had a neighbor whose dog died. Suppose the neighbor said to the dead dog: "Speak Fido!" "Fetch Fido!" "Roll over Fido!" Heal Fido!"
The dog has died; it is a corpse; it is not moving. Will it suddenly start obeying commands? No, of course not. It is silly to think so.
In Rom.6:11 The Bible is teaching that when sin comes along we are to act as that dead dog acts toward those commands, as dead. We say no to sin. We are dead to sin. It doesn't mean we are actually dead, but we are to make it our goal to act as dead to sin.
--The other part of the command is to be alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. This is yielding one's mind completely to Him. Both of these actions requires a complete and dedicated action of the mind, and cannot be done apart from the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul continues:
Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
--It is impossible to be sinless (1Jn.1:8,10). But it is our goal to be the servant of Christ and be completely yielded to him so that it is Christ who reigns and not sin.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
--As pointed out already, the members of my body (hand, feet, fingers) are instruments, and are simply made of elements of the periodic table. It is God that gives me life. I decide whether to use those instruments as instruments for righteousness unto God, or as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin. Who have I yielded my body to? Who have I yielded my mind to? Is it yielded to God. Throughout our spiritual life we fight a spiritual warfare (see Eph.6:11-18 and 2Cor.10:3-5).

You are right when you say:
I do believe our flesh, which includes this carnal mind and heart, does influence us and is at war with the Spirit. We must deny it's will to follow Jesus to have life.

It is the heart and mind which controls the flesh and the appetites thereof, which indeed are at war with the Spirit.

You also said:
This carnal mind, this heart is all apart of the flesh, but there is something else the inner being, the conscience that wants to do good something different than the flesh.
--I agree. Apart from the actual flesh is the carnal mind which exercises control over the flesh. Unless saved it will continue to do so. The Bible often uses the word "heart" in a metaphorical way: "I will give you a new heart." Of course it is not talking about the physical fleshly organ. It is speaking spiritually--a spiritual heart. This is opposed to the carnal heart which again is not a heart made of flesh and blood. It is the mind which is deceitful and desperately wicked. It needs the grace of God to be regenerated.

 

Romans 7:
18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[Or my flesh] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

I believe sinful nature and flesh is together and that is how for I will go with it.

 

Do you use the NIV? The NIV translates "sarx" as "sinful nature" in Romans 7:18 and 7:25. This is inconsistent, when "sarx" is used of Jesus the NIV translates it to be "flesh".

This shows that the NIV is biased to teach Original Sin.

If you were consistent, then you would believe Jesus had a sinful nature, because 1 John 4:3 says he came in the "sarx". Look and see for yourself.

And folks insist the KJB and the Modern Versions say the same thing. Nonsense!

Look up the word "sarx" and you will see the NIV is inconsistent in how it translates this word. And obviously you have been influenced by this interpretation. The KJB says "flesh" in both Romans 7:18 and 7:25.

Yes, Paul did say that there is nothing good in his flesh. The flesh does war against the Spirit, the flesh tugs and pulls us to satisfy itself, but this is not sin. We only sin when we obey those fleshly lusts and break one of God's laws.

Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, he felt the strong pull and tug of his flesh. He would have loved to have eaten some bread. But he did not obey this fleshly lust and so did not sin.

 

Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.



I know that you will not agree but a verse before it proves by the sin the dwelth in me is talking about a sinful nature, the only bias is you not agreeing with it. I love other translation because it brings me more understanding. A sinful nature in the flesh does not mean the inner man is, the flesh will be done away with and believers will be given a Spiritual body only in Him can we defeat the flesh because of Him and be save from the flesh.



24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

 

I have no problem with that verse. The moment you sin, you become "sinful", just as if you gain too much weight you become "fat".

When Paul says he would "do good", I believe he means 100% good. This is what the scriptures mean when they say "No man doeth good, no, not one". It is not saying we NEVER do good, because Jesus himself said sinners do good.

So, when Paul says when he would do good, that evil or sin is present with me, he means that he is "sold under sin", he is the "captive" of sin. It is like the ancient slaves who were bought in the market. When you sin, you sell yourself to "sin" and he is your master. He owns you. No matter what you do, you cannot get away from him, and his wage is death. This is what Paul means, even when he would do good, he is held captive by sin and is going to die.

The only remedy is to believe on Jesus. When we believe on Jesus we are baptized into his body and die with him to sin. Sin no longer owns us because we are dead. Paul also compared it to a married woman, as long as her husband is alive she is bound to him, but the moment he dies she is free.

Likewise, when we trust Christ we die with him to sin. Sin no longer own us or has any power over us. We are now under grace and not the law.

The body is not saved YET. We are stuck in this corruptible body until we die and are raised again. At that time we will receive incorruptible bodies.

Until then, we are stuck in this body that will continue to tug and pull us.

But scripture is clear, temptation is not sin. This is where folks get all mixed up. Just because your body wants something sinful, this is not sin. It is only sin when you actually obey that desire. Sin is something you DO, not something you ARE. To be "sinful" simply means we have committed sin.

 

Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Sinful nature dwelt at conception no matter how much you want to believe other wise flesh and sinful nature is together. Jesus defeated the flesh so those who are in Him in His rest will also defeat the flesh the sinful nature.

Temptation is not sin I agree with you on but that is another subject..

Sinful nature is a tendency toward sin.

Praise God there is no one good any percentage because Jesus came to save sinners and I am the worst

 

Double post