Romans 6.....is there water baptism in the passage, or Spirit baptism ..primarily?

[Iconoclast]

DHK

The old man is very much alive.

No he is very much dead...see ..you said it again..he WAS crucifed...and yet lives


Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

"But with the flesh I serve the law of sin." That is the old man

.

DHK...this is one of the roots of the difference here....He did not say with the OLD MAN I serve the law of sin....he did say with the flesh

I believe I posted this recently...as unsaved we were all in bodies that were affected by the fall, that have the motions of sin in them...
we had also the old man, the sin nature controlling the sinful motions of the flesh....the old man liked the fleshly suggestions and chased after them.They were on the same page,so to speak....

Now in Christ.....we are new creation...one new man....
the body still has the motions of sin...but the new man now resists and mortifies these sinful desires of the flesh.

Now In Christ we can begin to serve God and live holy

 

[DHK]

DHK



Really....that is interesting DHK...and yet when paul says the old man ;

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

somehow...he did not die!!!

when you tried to explain away this teaching you waxed allegorical and symbolic......Like the heretic Origen is said to have done!


Remember that post where you said I was allegorical Like the heretic Origen?
Now you contradict yourself trying to cover one false idea with another....very interesting DHK.:thumbsup:

This is your attempt to answer the Scriptures I gave you. You can't.
1Cor.15:31 still stands: "I die daily."

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

You still have no answer for these verses do you.
You must make the Bible contradict itself. You have no choice.

 

[DHK]

DHK



No he is very much dead...see ..you said it again..he WAS crucifed...and yet lives


Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The mind controls the flesh. The flesh (carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, etc. is not sinful and of itself). That is like saying that a rock is sinful. The idea is absurd. Your mind which is controlled at times by your sinful nature, controls the members of your body, which are made of flesh--the chemicals of the Periodic Table

That is why Paul said:
Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
--The old nature is not dead. It needs to be controlled. Don't allow it to use your members of your body as instruments of unrighteousness to sin. Your new nature wouldn't do that; but your old nature would.
Take control over that old nature! Subdue it. It is still there.

DHK...this is one of the roots of the difference here....He did not say with the OLD MAN I serve the law of sin....he did say with the flesh

John 4:24
God is a spirit; they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Sorry, Icon; I have bad news for you. You are not spirit; you are flesh.
And there are times you sin with your old nature, sometimes referred to as "the flesh."

I believe I posted this recently...as unsaved we were all in bodies that were affected by the fall, that have the motions of sin in them...
we had also the old man, the sin nature controlling the sinful motions of the flesh....the old man liked the fleshly suggestions and chased after them.They were on the same page,so to speak....

Now in Christ.....we are new creation...one new man....
the body still has the motions of sin...but the new man now resists and mortifies these sinful desires of the flesh.

Now In Christ we can begin to serve God and live holy

You sin. You are not sinless. You have an old nature. You struggle against it. And that struggle will continue until the day you die.
Paul also described it here:

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
--Do you bring every single thought into captivity; to the obedience of Christ--not only thought but every imagination of your heart?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

This is your attempt to answer the Scriptures I gave you. You can't.

Sure I can...but I had to pause to have some fun with you recent about face from strict literalism to a more allegorical and symbolic mode:laugh:

1Cor.15:31 still stands: "I die daily."

sure...he follows his own teaching;
rom6

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:


11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin

in other words...it is already true...so now live like it.

this is not hard to see is it? next case...

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

You still have no answer for these verses do you.

This speaks of identifying with Christ in open confession of Jesus as LORD>day by day...you might have seen this also by simply reading a bit more of the context...watch how Jesus explains it for us:thumbsup:

20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;

22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

I made it a little larger so you can see it....

You must make the Bible contradict itself. You have no choice.

No...I have not had to do that since I was trying to hang on to my dispensational ideas when I found out they were off the mark...a whole system of teaching, trying to give a bible worldview, but just the wrong worldview based on a wrong hermeneutic...maybe as we clash on here it will plant a seed in you also DHK:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,
John 4:24
God is a spirit; they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Sorry, Icon; I have bad news for you. You are not spirit; you are flesh.

Well I prefer the good news of scripture;
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

God has called me with an everlasting love and promised to preserve me....spirit ,soul , and body........I am not just flesh as you say...lol

The other day you said there was a lot of bad theology going on in here...having seen your recent postings...I agree!


And there are times you sin with your old nature, sometimes referred to as "the flesh."

 

[DHK]

DHK,
John 4:24
God is a spirit; they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.



Well I prefer the good news of scripture;
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

God has called me with an everlasting love and promised to preserve me....spirit ,soul , and body........I am not just flesh as you say...lol

The other day you said there was a lot of bad theology going on in here...having seen your recent postings...I agree!


And there are times you sin with your old nature, sometimes referred to as "the flesh."

The elements of the Periodic Table cannot sin. It is your Old Nature that causes them, the members of your body that sin (Romans 6:11-13).
Paul defined this body of flesh in this way:

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
--It is temporary like a tent. There is nothing sinful about it. Take it away and it unveils our spirit. However later on he says:

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
--It is not the "body" or "the flesh," per se, that is bad. It is the old nature that dwells within. Paul makes that quite clear here. We will be judged for the works that we do. The body does both good and bad works.
Does the new nature do bad works as well as good works?
Do you attribute the bad works to the Holy Spirit and to Christ who dwells within?
Are you not attributing sin to God??
The only conclusion then, is that the bad works are from the old nature that dwells within the body and causes us to make those wrong decisions. It doesn't alleviate us from responsibility. We still are found guilty. But we are guilty for yielding to our old nature and thus doing wrong. In the end we will lose reward because of our wrong decisions here on earth, done with our old nature (in the flesh).

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK
you posted this-

Sorry, Icon; I have bad news for you. You are not spirit; you are flesh.

Now you say

There is nothing sinful about it. Take it away and it unveils our spirit.

First you deny the spirit,,,now it came back...it is hard to follow this maze.

It is not the "body" or "the flesh," per se, that is bad. It is the old nature that dwells within. Paul makes that quite clear here.

Paul did not make that clear.....you inserted it[eisegesis]....he did not mention nature at all yet you claim he made it quite clear???

what he did make clear however was;
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Does the new nature do bad works as well as good works?

The new nature is responsible to use the means God has given to mortify sin....failure to obey will result in sin. No one believes in sinless perfection.

Do you attribute the bad works to the Holy Spirit and to Christ who dwells within?

Strawman in progress...you cannot help yourself...

Are you not attributing sin to God??

No...that would never cross my mind...such an evil suggestion

The only conclusion then, is that the bad works are from the old nature that dwells within the body and causes us to make those wrong decisions. It doesn't alleviate us from responsibility.

this is an excuse and a cop-out

We still are found guilty. But we are guilty for yielding to our old nature and thus doing wrong. In the end we will lose reward because of our wrong decisions here on earth, done with our old nature (in the flesh).

you insert nature here...Paul does not.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

 

[DHK]

DHK
you posted this-

Now you say

First you deny the spirit,,,now it came back...it is hard to follow this maze.

Perhaps grammar school might be in order for you?
God is a Spirit (John 4:24)
You are not like God; having ONLY as spirit, are you? You also have flesh.
James tells us what happens when the spirit is separated from the flesh:
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--The spirit departs from the body. The body is buried and is turned back into dust from whence it came. It is simply a pile of chemicals. There is nothing intrinsically good or evil about the flesh. Some cultures eat it. Does that mean they are eating the "old nature" Icon?
What happens in a blood transfusion? Any theological implications for you?
An organ implant? A heart transplant? Dialysis? Bone marrow transplant? In all of the above examples (and so many more), is the flesh (old nature) transplanted into another person. What about a living kidney from a living person donated to another living person?
Flesh is flesh; meat is meat.

Paul did not make that clear.....you inserted it[eisegesis]....he did not mention nature at all yet you claim he made it quite clear???

2Cor.5:1ff speaks about a body. It is referred to as a tabernacle which is temporary. Someday we will shed it. Then we will stand before God and be accountable for the works done in our body whether good or bad.
The body is simply chemicals turned into dust. What is in the body is the Old Nature that caused you to do evil.

what he did make clear however was;
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The new nature is responsible to use the means God has given to mortify sin....failure to obey will result in sin. No one believes in sinless perfection.

You, and many others, have no idea of the meaning of that verse. You have taken it out of context. Are you teachable? Let's find out what it really means:

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
--Christ died for all.
Those who believe in Christ; those who are saved; they can no longer live selfishly (unto themselves). They must live for Christ (which also means living for others). Remember that one of the problems of this church was its selfishness and divisiveness.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
--The church was divided into a number of cliques: the rich with rich, the poor with the poor, etc. This was evident in 1Cor.11 in the love feast held right before the Lord's Table. Some were drunk and gluttonous, and some had no food at all.
Paul writes here "Henceforth we know no man after the flesh."
From this time forward (from salvation onward), we don't know each other after the flesh. IOW, it doesn't matter what you were before salvation: rich or poor, what caste you may have been, banker or pauper, fat or thin, etc. The past is gone.
We do not know each other after the flesh any longer.
Paul says, we did or may have known Christ after the flesh. Paul did. In 1Cor.15 there were over 500 witnesses still alive. But they didn't know him that way any longer. More importantly, Paul may have known him "in the flesh" before he was saved. Now he knew him "in the Spirit" after he was saved.
No matter who they were: Jew or Gentile, rich or poor, they were all one in Christ now.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
--Thus the meaning of this verse in this context is:
Those that are "in Christ" (believers) are new creatures. Their past lives are over in the eyes of the other believers around them. Whether they were a Jew or a Gentile, or rich or poor doesn't matter any longer. Those are the old things that are passed away.
All things are become new. All in the congregation look upon you as an equal. We are one in Christ. This is the true meaning of this verse when you take it in context.
All too often the context is ignored.

No...that would never cross my mind...such an evil suggestion

Who did sin? The old nature or the new nature? Which one?

this is an excuse and a cop-out

It is your cop-out. Answer the above questions.

you insert nature here...Paul does not.

Old nature, Old man, etc. They are all synonyms for the same thing.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Good verses. Do you understand them?

 

[convicted1]

I get what you meant with that, but how does that mesh with what you wrote about Romans 6 being a spiritual baptism?

Sorry 'bout not getting back to this sooner. I will try to explain myself, via the scriptures, and explain what I was trying to previously convey to you.

Romans 6:

7 for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.

What died here that was set free from sin? Was it the flesh? No. Was in the soul? Yes. The flesh still has the stain of sin all over it, "it is still at enmity with God"(Romans 8:7). "It can not understand the things of the Spirit"(1 Cor. 2:14). The soul has been set free by the shed blood of Christ. It has been cleansed, it has now on it the wedding garment, waiting for the Bridegroom to call it home.

11 so also ye, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to the sin, and living to God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

I think the verse that states "we are dead, and our lives are hid with Christ in God"(Col. 3:3), should suffice. We no longer live of ourselves, but it is rather, that "in Christ we live, move and have our being"(Acts 17:28). We are dead, the old man died, was crucified. Christ now lives within us, and "because He lives, we can live also"(John 14:19).


14 for sin over you shall not have lordship, for ye are not under law, but under grace.

Sin no longer lords, or reigns, over us. Christ, the Stronger Man, came in and "cast the strong man out, and spoiled his goods"(Matt. 12:29). And after He ejects him out of that person, He tells that strong man "to come back in to him again"(Mark 9:25).



22 And now, having been freed from the sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit -- to sanctification, and the end life age-during;

23 for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.


None of this is given to the believer in water baptism, as Brother Iconoclast previously stated in an earlier post.

 

[kyredneck]

The elect were immersed into Christ prior to being dunked.

:thumbsup: Prior to the cross also.

There is no such thing as baptism in the spirit for individuals before or after the cross......

Bib, all I meant was every aspect of the cross was applied to all saints of all ages.

 

[Yeshua1]

Bib, all I meant was every aspect of the cross was applied to all saints of all ages.

Indeed, when they received God and His promises through faith!

 

[Yeshua1]

DHK



No he is very much dead...see ..you said it again..he WAS crucifed...and yet lives


Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

.

DHK...this is one of the roots of the difference here....He did not say with the OLD MAN I serve the law of sin....he did say with the flesh

I believe I posted this recently...as unsaved we were all in bodies that were affected by the fall, that have the motions of sin in them...
we had also the old man, the sin nature controlling the sinful motions of the flesh....the old man liked the fleshly suggestions and chased after them.They were on the same page,so to speak....

Now in Christ.....we are new creation...one new man....
the body still has the motions of sin...but the new man now resists and mortifies these sinful desires of the flesh.

Now In Christ we can begin to serve God and live holy

the sinful desires of the flesh....

How is that NOT the sinful nature we were all born with?

God gave rebirth to our spiritual natures, but did not blow up the sinner nature, that goes in the resurrection!

 

[Iconoclast]

the sinful desires of the flesh....

How is that NOT the sinful nature we were all born with?

God gave rebirth to our spiritual natures, but did not blow up the sinner nature, that goes in the resurrection!

Explain what this verse means...

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

try a full answer..open up this text

 

[DHK]

Explain what this verse means...

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

try a full answer..open up this text

Are you sinless?
When you sin, do you blame your new nature, that is, the Holy Spirit residing in you?
Then who? Icon?
I thought you believed in Total Depravity. I guess not.

 

[Iconoclast]

Are you sinless?
When you sin, do you blame your new nature, that is, the Holy Spirit residing in you?
Then who? Icon?
I thought you believed in Total Depravity. I guess not.

I and others have answered you on this several times. You are getting frustrated as your ideas have been exposed as false,
I understand:wavey:

I thought you believed in Total Depravity

I do....I understand it also:
1689 Baptist Confession Chapter 6

< Chapter 5 | Table of Contents | Chapter 7 >

Chapter 6: Of the Fall of Man, Of Sin, And of the Punishment Thereof

1. Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it, and threatened death upon the breach thereof, yet he did not long abide in this honour; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion, did willfully transgress the law of their creation, and the command given unto them, in eating the forbidden fruit, which God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory. ( Genesis 2:16, 17; Genesis 3:12,13; 2 Corinthians 11:3 )

2. Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body. ( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )

3. They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free. ( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

4. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions. ( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

5. The corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin. ( Romans 7:18,23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; Romans 7:23-25; Galatians 5:17 )

 

[HankD]

Sorry, I went right to the end after reading a few pages of posts so I apologize if someone already mentioned this popular quote below.

When attending a theology class and the subject matter was water baptism and Romans 6 the professor said "there is not a drop of water in Romans 6" and we moved on.

HankD

 

[Iconoclast]

Sorry, I went right to the end after reading a few pages of posts so I apologize if someone already mentioned this popular quote below.

When attending a theology class and the subject matter was water baptism and Romans 6 the professor said "there is not a drop of water in Romans 6" and we moved on.

HankD

He is correct Hank D:thumbs::applause::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Perhaps grammar school might be in order for you?

This lets me know either a strawman or snow job is coming..lets see which-

God is a Spirit (John 4:24)
You are not like God; having ONLY as spirit, are you? You also have flesh.

oh...it is the snow job, trying to cover your poor theology...it just digs a deeper hole for you
This is your attempt at damage control, You did not say...you also have flesh, here is what you did say, and the correction I offered you;

Quote:

Sorry, Icon; I have bad news for you. You are not spirit; you are flesh.

Well I prefer the good news of scripture;
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

God has called me with an everlasting love and promised to preserve me....spirit ,soul , and body........I am not just flesh as you say...lol

The other day you said there was a lot of bad theology going on in here...having seen your recent postings...I agree!

 

[DHK]

DHK

This lets me know either a strawman or snow job is coming..lets see which-

oh...it is the snow job, trying to cover your poor theology...it just digs a deeper hole for you
This is your attempt at damage control, You did not say...you also have flesh, here is what you did say, and the correction I offered you;

God is a Spirit (John 4:24).
I stated that in comparison to God, you are not a spirit (or just a spirit, if you need the grammar lesson). You are not a god. You have flesh and bones. Plus being made in the image of God you also have a soul and spirit. I didn't think that I would have to write a theology book to explain my position to you because you couldn't understand a couple of simple sentences.

 

[DHK]

4. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions. ( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

5. The corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin. ( Romans 7:18,23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; Romans 7:23-25; Galatians 5:17 )

If you believe in the Confession, and the Confession's view of the depravity of man, then of a necessity you must believe that each believer has an old nature. That is what points 4 and 5 are describing here. They are not describing unbelievers, but the life of the believer.

"The corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin."

You still have that corrupt nature, that old nature, that old man. It lives side by side with that new nature. That is the struggle that Paul describes in Romans chapter seven, and that is the reference that your Confession gives here.