Featured Romans 6.....is there water baptism in the passage, or Spirit baptism ..primarily?

Let me quickly answer this.
You haven't given an adequate answer yet. It still doesn't answer the question that arises out of Roman 7:23-25.

Your premise is this:
The new man...in that same body of flesh...now mortifies the motions of sin.

So I ask again, If it is the new man that is alive in the flesh, and the old man that is "mortified," or the motions of sin are mortified, then when you sin, is the sin attributed to the new man, which is from the Holy Spirit?
Secondly, what happened to the doctrine of the depravity of man, as described in the Baptist Confession of Faith? Don't you believe it any longer?

 

Yes he did answer you, thoroughly and acurately, you just disagree with his answers.....

Here's what I think about his post...

 

Then perhaps I can't understand his explanation. Understand this. We have a sin nature. No one is born "innocent" as Adam was. The body in and of itself is not sinful. David said: "I am fearfully and wonderfully made," and praised God for his body. Think how it is God who keeps the heart beating and not ourselves. There is nothing inherently evil about the body or the body of this flesh. From birth to death it is made up chemicals: hydrogen, nitrogen, carbon, oxygen and many others. You cannot put blame on carbon and oxygen for sin. There is absolutely nothing evil in the body itself.
Paul calls it a tabernacle. It is just a shell. Someday we will shed it for a better one. There is nothing sinful about a tent (tabernacle). It is a house. We will get a new one, a better one.

Within this body dwells two natures. An old one which we have had from birth. It has never been eradicated. If it had been we would be perfect and sinless like Christ. The new nature is from the Holy Spirit. The new nature does not sin, or sin is attributed to God. It is the old man that sins. This clear from Romans 7, and the struggle that Paul wages between the two natures.

The crucified life can only be understood through a key verse in Romans 6:11: "Likewise reckon yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin."
It doesn't say we ARE dead. We are to reckon ourselves to be dead. That is an active verb which demands action on our part.

Romans 6:11 Thus also consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. WEB

(Geneva) Likewise thinke ye also, that ye are dead to sin, but are aliue to God in Iesus Christ our Lord.

(MKJV) Likewise count yourselves also to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Geneva sheds the most light here. Think of yourselves as already dead to sin. You are not dead, but you must think of yourselves that way. The battle is in the mind. In fact that is the way Paul phrased it in Romans 7:25,
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--Victory will only come through the mind.
It is the mind that controls the body as well. The body is not sinful. Paul has already spoken about that in Romans 6. Yield your body as instruments of righteousness.
The flesh, here, is the old man. It is the old nature, that principle of sin that dwells within that will give into sin and its consequences. The law of sin is stated in Romans 6:23--the consequences of sin is death.

What Icon cannot explain is this:
1Cor.15:31 "I die daily."
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Jesus spoke of being crucified every day as Paul spoke of dieing every day. It is not a one time act. Every day one must take up his cross and die. That is also what Paul meant by "reckon." The old nature is not dead. It lives. Every day it must be put to death.
These are two verses that Icon cannot handle.

 

The new man is not in charge of the body all the time. It must be put to death on a daily basis (1Cor.15:31; Luke 9:23).
Paul also says:
Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
--This has nothing to do with salvation, but rather sanctification in the life of the believer. He is speaking to mature believers. Every day we are to put off the old man and put on the new man--put off the old nature; say no to the old nature, and yield ourselves to Christ, to the new nature of the Holy Spirit.

Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
--The same concept is taught here. He puts it in past tense. Nevertheless it is a daily chore that one must do themselves. It is an act of submission.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
--It is not a done deal. You have to be the one not to allow sin to reign in your body.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
--You are the one that must not yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin. Why? Your old nature will cause you to do this. It is very active causing you to "do the things you don't want to do," as Paul said.

Only symbolically. You must consider the old man crucified. He isn't dead as it says in verse 11. You must consider him as dead; live as if he is dead. If he was dead you would never sin; but you do, and you know you do.

NO, the old man chases you around and causes you to sin. Have you now denied the depravity of man? Look at your Confession of Faith, and review the doctrine. It is Finney that denied the doctrine of the depravity of man, and you are now agreeing with him, not me. You are confused. The old man still exists. That is why he must be crucified on a daily basis (Luke 9:23).

If you have to daily mortify the deeds of the body, then who causes the deeds of the body that have to be mortified? The Holy Spirit? No! It is the old man who is not put to death!

Your life is not dead is it? Paul speaks in a metaphor there.

What spirit baptism? There is no spirit baptism there. You are not even able to define it much less demonstrate it from the Bible. There is no mention of baptism at all. You are reading your opinions into the Bible. They are not there.

Mortify means put to death. That speaks of the crucified life. Every day you must put to death that corrupt nature that would cause you to sin.
Remember this verse:
Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

They come from the old man; the old nature, which you still have. Do you really think that they come from the new man, the Holy Spirit?

But that is not how it is put in Ephesians. In Ephesians it is in present tense.
Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
--It is a daily action.

You once put them off. But the teaching here is that you must continue to put them off every day. Notice all the verbs in present tense. Verse five for example: Put off (now)...
It is a battle of the flesh (the old man who still lives), daily must be put off.
Just because you lied when you were unsaved does not mean you don't lie after you were saved. Be honest with yourself.

It is a daily action!
Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Be renewed; Put on the new man--these commands are in the present tense; meant to be done on a continual basis as in every day.

"Failing to obey what He commands is sin." So who does sin? The old nature or the new nature--the Holy Spirit? Is it God that you are attributing to sin to, since the Old Man is dead in your view?

But you do sin, and that is the rub.

You can't answer the same type of question when applied to yourself as I demonstrated.

According to 1Cor.6:19,20, our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. We belong to Him. That doesn't mean we will not sin. The old nature still is there and will be until we die. It is not eradicated. Read your Confession on the Depravity of man.

Jesus said that you must take up your cross daily. You cannot believe what you believe and also believe the words of Jesus at the same time. No you haven't successfully answered that. Your beliefs contradict the words of Jesus.

Jesus did not speak of identifying with him. He spoke of being crucified, and being crucified daily. You don't like those words. You don't like what they mean. You try to make them mean something else. In the same context he said "deny yourself." What does that mean? In no way does it mean "Identify yourself with me."
You gave me an opinion which is entirely against Scripture. So you have not answered adequately answered the Scriptures.
For that you call my into question my beliefs as

"wesleyian perfection mythology leading one into a subjective experience on a fools errand."

That kind of language and accusations, truthfully needs an infraction.
If you can't debate the topic without that nonsense then withdraw.

 

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Rom 7:22-24

Is that the body that is the temple of the Holy Spirit? I believe so.

Now I believe that Spirit was received because of the baptism Luke 12:50 of Jesus, which I believe to be the faith that came, by which the Spirit was received. See Gal 3:23 & 25 that we heard of See Gal 3:2.

Water, even in Romans 6? Not sure but let's look at , say Paul.

Acts 9:17,18 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Greek geeks again, I know no Greek.

It would be hard to water baptize one without laying hands on one. In the Greek, had two things taken place or one.

Could the above be understood as he laid hands on him and he received the Holy Spirit and arose being baptized?


I guess this also hast to be looked at in the context of Acts 10:47,48.

 

Anytime, Brother, anytime....

Your's was a slam dunk....

Here's Brother DHK's....

 

Brother DHK's posts.....




Swing and a "whiff".......

 

Brother Iconoclast's posts.....





Outta the ballpark....

 

This is relevant only in that it is also a picture of water baptism.

They were immersed in picture form. The waters came up on either side of them providing a path for them to walk. They were also above them.
On 1Cor.10:2 A.T. Robertson says:

Most agree that this is a picture of baptism for the believer. I don't think I have heard an exposition of this passage where baptism of the believer has not been referred to. It is a classic one. The deliverance of the Israelites from the Egyptian army is part of their deliverance from their old life of sin. The manner in which it was done is inconsequential.

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
In picture, they were identifying with Christ. "That rock was Christ."
Their old life was left behind. They came through the waters. The Lord was their protection. They were immersed in his love and protection. They were to follow Christ in a new life to the Promised Land.

God promised never again to destroy the world by water. But sometime in the future he will destroy it by fire. The fact that it was immersed by water, and that in the future will be "immersed" by fire is, again, inconsequential. Our attention is not to be focused on the unsaved, but the saved. Noah and his family were not saved by water. They were saved by Christ. They were in the Ark. And that ark was Christ. It was the ark that was in the midst of the waters. They were in the ark, that is to say, "in Christ." Water does not save; Christ saves.

The picture must be taken in context. The context follows from chapter five. The entire chapter speaks of justification. What happens when a person is justified? His old life is buried and he is made a new creature. Thus in baptism: In picture, his old life to sin is buried or put to death, and he rises again in newness of life, as Christ did in His resurrection. There is no "union" being spoken of here.

And we are not Presbyterians. They also baptized infants.

I simply look for the meaning of the Scripture. I don't try to read into it as you seem to be doing.

Do this for me:
First define your terms:
What is it you believe? spirit baptism? Baptism of the Spirit? by the Spirit? with the Spirit? in the Spirit?
They are all different terms and using them interchangeably simply causes confusion. Choose what you believe and then define it. Define it according to the Scripture. Give evidence that this doctrine (baptism of the Spirit, or whatever) exists today.

 

Paul had to fight against following his sinful desires/thoughts of the flesh though AFTER salvation, do you?

And paul commands/exhorts us to reckon/consider the truth that we have died with jesus, raised with Him now, as the very reason to mortify and put down what the flesh desires us to do still...

The Holy spirit gives us the power to live as we ought now, but he did not eradicate that Adamic nature in our flesh, but made our spirit come alive again unto god, thaich which died in all of us as being sinners after the likeness of adam!

 

strange, that you can see things that way, as paul clearly supports the views of DHK in this topic!

 

The past event of salvation (having been thoroughly explained in chapter five), is presently pictured by baptism in Romans 6:3-5.

 

No, I am just asking for some decency Icon. If you remember some time ago Dr. Bob stated to all that it was against the rules to call one another heretics or their view heresy. You are coming close to that, with the language you use being that offensive. Just because my view is different does not mean it is false teaching and I am a false teacher. in First John, John calls the false teachers "antichrists." Is that what you are calling me?
Disagree with me. I have a different point of view. But don't call it heresy, or false teaching. You said: "I am going to start a thread on 'this false teaching.'" That is not right.
Tell me that you don't think I am correct or even I am in error. That is your opinion. But labeling people as false teachers here is wrong.

Tell me where my post is in error. That is fine.

You have been denying the depravity of man (as Finney did). Not once have you responded to this accusation. Why? I even quoted from the Confession you posted. You still don't respond. Yes, Finney denied the depravity of man, as you are doing. If you have an answer then please give it.

The reality is salvation.

I am not going to give my view until you define your terms. Otherwise we are just speaking past each other. You use the term "spirit baptism." That phrase is not even used in the Scriptures once. Why then should I believe in it? What are you talking about?
Perhaps it would be better to start another thread just on this topic.

I can't give a view on something that I don't know anything about. IOW tell me what you want your view on. "Spirit baptism" isn't in the Bible!