Featured NIV vs. ESV, Part 2

This post has absolutely nothing to say concerning the two translation versions identified in the OP. Negative comments toward certain versions has been deemed "hate speech."

But, lets pause in our efforts to demonstrate one translation is superior to another, and simply consider the meaning of Ecc. 1:8.

My method would be to start with the NASB95 version to begin the process of study:

All things are wearisome; Man is not able to tell it.
The eye is not satisfied with seeing,
Nor is the ear filled with hearing.

The meaning of the Hebrew word translated "all things" refers to words, utterances, activities, i.e the actions of mankind to communicate with others. "Dabar" in the form of a noun.

The Hebrew word translated are wearisome, is an adjective describing an exhausting effort. Thus the effort to communicate with mankind is exhausting.

Well why is that? Those being communicated with are not satisfied with seeing words, or hearing words.

And what is the context? Futility.

 

IMO the ESV in Ec 1:8 is clearer in differentiating three responses to weariness:
speech, seeing and hearing.

Even better in some other versions:

Lexham English Bible
All things toil continuously;

no one can ever finish describing this.
The eye is never satisfied with seeing,
and the ear is never filled with hearing.
​

Robert Alter
All things are weary.

A man cannot speak.
The eye is not sated with seeing,
nor the ear with hearing.
​

Rob

 

Indeed.

Indeed again. D.A. Carson has said that "The aural (heard) form of language has priority over the written form."

Certainly, in case after case the NIV uses more natural language without sacrificing fidelity to the source languages.

I'll give the NRSV rendering:
"The people of long ago are not remembered, nor will there be any remembrance of people yet to come by those who come after them."

It's still not as clear as the NIV, but still represents an improvement over that of the ESV.

Well, I wouldn't say that. The ESV is based on the 1971 edition of the RSV. Therefore, most of its renderings stick with the RSV reading. There has been a slow, incremental revision --almost microscopic to the naked eye. Ever so gradually the ESV is improving. It's a shame that the ESV didn't get permission to revise the NRSV instead of the RSV. The first edition of the ESV was released about a dozen years after the NRSV but sounds more antiquated for a "modern version."

The ESV needs a full-fledged overhaul. The translators need to devote an intense block of time for a much called for true revision. The trouble is : a real revision --not a light dusting --will result in a product that will look remarkably like the 2011 NIV! And they can't have that. So the ESV folks are between a rock and a hard place.

 

Ecc. 1:8 from the NET Bible:

"All this monotony is tiresome; no one can bear to describe it: The eye is never satisfied with seeing, nor is the ear ever content with hearing."

Oh, on a side note two conservative versions use inclusive language as the NET and NIV have. I'll quote just the first sentence from each.

WEB : "All things are full of weariness beyond uttering."
Darby : "All things are full of toil; none can express it."

 

More From Ecclesiastes

4:5
ESV : The fool folds his hands and eats his own flesh.
NIV : Fools fold their hands and ruin themselves.
[Don't you think that the NIV rendering is tad bit plainer?]

5:2
ESV : Be not rash with your mouth
NIV : Do not be quick with your mouth

[The NIV still has a few inverted negatives it has to weed-out. But the ESV? It's going to take an excavating machine.]

5:6
ESV : Let not your mouth lead you into sin.
NIV : Do not let your mouth lead you into sin.
[Back to those pesky inverted negatives again. Does it sound more holy to say "Let not" instead of "Do not let" in a sentence?]

7:9
ESV : Be not quick to anger
NIV : Do not be quickly provoked
[Get the picture?]

7:14
ESV : so that man may not find out anything that will be after him
NIV : Therefore, no one can discover anything about their future.
[The NIV is especially clear.]

7:24
ESV : That which has been is far off, and deep, very deep, who can find it?
NIV : Whatever exists is far off and most profound --who can discover it?

Conclusion? The NIV is the winner in these six examples. More at a later time.

 

Snips From Ecclesiastes 8

v.3
ESV : Be not hasty
NIV : Do not be in a hurry
[Back to the inverted negative with the ESV]

v. 12
ESV : prolongs his life
NIV : may live a long time
[A person does not prolong their own life as the ESV seems to suggest.]

v.17
ESV : However much man may toil in seeking
NIV : Despite all their efforts to search it out
[The NIV makes the idea plain.]

v. 17 (the end)
ESV : he can not find it out
NIV : they can not really comprehend it
[The NIV uses natural English...the ESV? Not so much.]

 

Ecc.

9:12
ESV : man does not know his time
NIV : no one knows when their hour will come
[The ESV reading can be taken the wrong way --not so for the NIV]

10:5
ESV : as it were an error proceeding from the ruler
NIV : the sort of error that arises from a ruler
[As it were an error? That's not normal English.]

12:4
ESV : all the daughters of song are brought low
NIV : all their songs grow faint
[Someone is growing deaf. The NIV communicates the meaning.]

12:12
ESV : much study is a weariness of the flesh
NIV : much study wearies the body
[Who speaks like the ESV rendering?]

 

No, rather they should decide to overhaul it, and go for becoing a true literal version of the scriptures, not an"essentially one"

 

No version can be even 85% literal. You're fooling yourselof to think that. Even the term "essentially literal" is a misnomer. The more literal --the more incomprehensible.

 

The Greek word, G3004, legO, means to gather words together to express something. So it could easily include the expression of a question. OTOH, to assume it was a question, rather than simply an expression using words, would need to be driven by context. In looking at the prior verses, Paul is telling Philemon what to do. Thus asking is certainly a viable translation choice, but not a necessary one.

 

Philemon 1:21 KJV

Having confidence in thy obedience I wrote unto thee, knowing that thou wilt also do more than I say.

I my self like KJV

 

The Greek word is usually translated as some form of "say" but plenty of alternate choices are found in the various translations, such as ask, or mention. "Request" might be a good choice, since Paul is confident in Philemon's obedience.

 

Other versions which use ask are : NIrV, NLT, NET, GWT, ISV, Goodspeed, NCV, CEB, Phillips and the 20th Century New Testament.

 

It may be smoother. I don't know if I would call it "much more succinct". It probably isn't as word for word though. Most translations I have use "mouth". I don't have Hebrew text....so I dont know for sure.

NASB95|She opens her mouth in wisdom, And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.

ESV|She opens her mouth*°with*wisdom,°and*the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.*11.8%*difference

NLT|°When she speaks,*her*°words are wise,*°and she gives instructions with*kindness*°.75.8%*difference

NKJV|She opens her mouth*°with*wisdom, And*on her tongue is*the*°law*of kindness*°.35.3%*difference

HCSB|She opens her mouth*°with*wisdom°and loving instruction*is on her tongue.35.5%*difference

 

I see what you are saying. But there may be something the wording of ESV and others. The NIV translations makes it sound like she is only wise when she speaks. However, it is at times in life, wiser to not speak. So, I look at it as she speaks when it is wise. Not necessarily that she is a speaker of wisdom.

We can all think of times when we should have kept our mouth shut.